Midi question

My DMX is not the tool for you. Compu Show from Elation is. We have one member here that has my dmx and compu show and uses midi to trigger stuff automatically. I'll see if I can get him to post.
Welcome to the forums.
Sincerely,

OK, you're not interested in MIDI trigger. We have some home here, but your path does not lie with MyDMX, it is with Compu Show.

This is a brief over-view of how I run a MAJOR show I do(well, compared to what I used to do, this is nothing, but I digress)

The show is a shadowcast production, so video with audio drives the show. But I can also handle multiple audio channels of output.

The video machine is running Sony Vegas Pro 10. What's only critical is that Sony Vegas Pro 10 can general MTC. MMC is not something you want to us for this, that's more used for controlling MTRs and similar things.

So, Sony Vegas 10 is pumping audio and MIDI via an M-Audio Firewire 410 interface. This can be split into multiple interfaces(audio on one, MIDI on another). The MIDI OUT is pushing MTC. In Compu Show on another machine, the MIDI IN on that MIDI interface is receiving the MTC, and Easy Show(part of Compu Show) is reading this timecode and by referencing a timeline that you have(maybe by dragging in your audio to that for reference purposes). This syncs up fast and perfectly.

I'm leaving out lots of steps, but it's really not terribly hard. There are two main keys:

First, generate a single Pro Tools session for your show with all your songs in it/backing tracks. You can skip the click. Import this file into Easy Show's timeline. Make your scenes and switches in Compu Show, import those into Easy Show, lay them where you need to.

YES: you can jump around, Easy Show will track it as it's slaved. Well, you do have to tell EasyShow to slave to MTC. Other than that, no issues.

For what you want to do, you want Compu Show. Ask Jngles what interface you need. I have the SD+ Interface so I have all the "bells and whistles".

While there is a learning curve, Compu Show is great to use and not too hard. I still use MyDMX as I have it set up for doing concerts fast. I haven't used MyDMX for a while. I'll fire it up in a day or two just to re-familiarize myself with it again. MyDMX isn't leaving my rig any time soon.

Thanks for the help. I thought MMC would do, because I'm really just looking to tell another to start playing... just like I would any number of other devices by doing the same thing. With the tracks (identical to what we already have on our HDR) I figured we would just have that sync everything else up, as far as lighting. So, basically creating a different sequences per track (we don't play the same songs every night, or in the same order) and sync that sequence to what is essentially our backing tracks (click or not, doesn't really matter since only the lighting program would be listening to it). So, now, we have say 20 or so different shows, one for each song. Someone pulls up on the laptop from the side of the stage the song we're about to play. We pull up the song we're about to play on our HDR. We hit PLAY on the HDR it triggers playback of the light show.
I guess where I'm confused is that I don't think I need MTC. I'm not trying to sync the lights to MTC, I'm using Easy show to trigger the lights to the music file. I Just need MIDI to tell the damn thing to start/stop. I don't want to start bringing in other laptops, start using additional programs, and buying additional interfaces when it really should be as simple as doing what I've described above, right?
I could see if we had video running as well, and multiple audio channels, but we're running much simpler than that. OUR backing tracks are running out of the HDR as a single channel. No extra video or anything.

Though I think I have an Akai sample pad thing laying around somewhere. I guess I could just use that to trigger it, and have the drummer hit it when the song starts. He's supposed to have pretty good timing, right? From there, the sequenced show should match up to our backing tracks.

Actually, for as little lighting as I'll be using, it seems Chauvet's Show Exprees might be the best solution. Visualizer, timeline, and same MIDI capabilities... at half the price.

Well whatever program you decide to purchase, hope it does what you want and you are happy with it.
Sincerely,

I'm just falling back on 30 years of experience, so I guess I don't know anything.

If you put all your songs into a timeline, you can still trigger them. MTC will let you jump around.

I mean, you can program your show based on a stopwatch and exact timing, and then trigger the scene at the start of the song. It's a pain in the butt, but it can work. I did a 2 hour show doing it this way. It's a pain, but it CAN be done.

Sure, I understand that. But the controller software isn't the only we're using. We have the HDR w/ songs on it. Jumping around wouldn't do us much good, and really wouldn't work in our scenario. For example, we play our first song, and everything's cool. Then we pull up the next song, and the next song, and so forth. If our backing tracks were run as some sort of single continuous audio file, and we knew where the starting points for each were, and had the time between songs in a live setting to call up specific time location, then yeah, that would probably work. But our setlist changes, the orders of the song changes, and we already have an established system with a click built in. It would just make sense to have a different lighting sequence for each show sync'd to a timeline that corresponds with our existing system. That way all we have to do is change our tracks on the HDR, call up the appropriate light show sequence, and hit play to have both systems running. With each track separated we're free to embellish somewhat on the end of our tracks as well.
I'll keep researching the MMC control bit. If that doesn't work, maybe just using some other MIDI device to trigger a scene start, I don't know. MTC is perfect for the situation you're describing, but it wouldn't work for us unfortunately.

Having your backing track send MMC signals to a midi controller would be a piece of cake (assuming the backing track isn’t using too many of the 16 midi channels – you will likely need several for the lights). I use hardward midi controllers, but the software controllers that are midi capable should be similar, in that a “note on” to note a note number (e.g., 64) on a midi channel (e.g., ch 16) will trigger on the scene or show associated with that note number/channel. Send a “note on” to a different note number and/or channel and a new scene/show is triggered. Just go to the place in your backing track timeline and stick in the trigger notes and set up your controller to listen for the notes and you will be good to go.

This approach will be very flexible in that you can have any light in your rig doing whatever you want at a particular point in each song. But unless you reprogram your backing tracks for each show, you have the same light show for each particular song night after night. If you were asking to be able to have the controller change the light show from night to night while receiving an unchanged signal from the backing track, that’s going to be really complicated – if it can be done at all.

Thanks! The backing track isn't using any midi tracks whatsoever. It's all audio on a hard disk recorder. I was just wanting to send MMC from the hard disk controller like I would to a DAW or something. I suppose I could set up an additional MIDI controller if that would be easier. Maybe just have the drummer hit a pad when the songs start or something. But it seems as if the MMC would work just fine. But yeah, I was thinking a designing a whole show for each song. So once a song was done, the next show would need to be pulled up for the next track. Shouldn't be too difficult right? Just have the bassist, or whoever, pull up the next light show while the drummer changes the backing tracks for the next song.
Basically, we have a Korg D1600 (they're super cheap if it ever breaks down) and each song on it consists of 8-16 backing tracks set to a click. The drummer gets everything. Everything but the click goes out of a send to the PA. I don't think it generates MTC, but pretty sure it does MMC. We'd really like avoid having a laptop on stage as it can get kind of intense up there.
Because we're looking to retain some flexibility, and work within the constraints of our current system, it's not feasible to string all of our songs into one continuous file and sync via MTC. While it seems like it might be easier to do that, we'd have absolutely no flexibility with the individual components of the backing tracks. With our current system, if our drummer needs the click to be louder on the fly, he can adjust that. We'll be adding in-ear monitors as well, at which point the mix from the recorder will go to a small mixer on stage before it evens hits FOH. That way we don't even have to rely on the sound guy to have things the way we want them on stage. It's a lot of gear and trouble for a band I guess, but... well, I don't know. I'm at a loss of why that's a good thing. We like it I guess and few others bother doing it.

Oh. Now I get it. When you said "click track" I assumed you had a sequencer going.

Here is a whacky idea you could use:

Get a MMC capable DMX controller that works off of notes. [This will allow you to choose up to 128 scenes or shows.]

I trigger a Magic260 with MMC. It works well. It has some limitations:

http://forums.americandj.com/e...680037046#3680037046

But with this whacky idea I don't think you will find any controller that would enable you to select more than 128 lighting scenes/shows.

Which light scene/show comes on will depend on which note on signal you send to the controller (0-127).

Plug something into the D1600 that will generate each of the 128 notes (or however many light scenes you will be using).

Play you backing track and dub onto a second track the notes for the light scenes you want to come on throughout the song.

Pan you backing track Left and your light notes track right. Run left to FOH and your lighting track note track to something like a Sonuus G2M note to midi converter. Send the midi out of the G2M to your light controller.

You're done!

BTW: If you have to pan your click track to one of the outs, just make sure you don't program a lighting scene to the note it is playing. That way it can click away without triggering a scene in the DMX controller.

That's certainly interesting. I'm not sure I understand why I'd resort to all of this though. Will MMC not simply trigger a show? Will it not treat the software just like it would a DAW? I'm talking about having to close one in the program and actually having to go to File>Open to pull up the next one, as far as lighting sequences. there wouldn't be any problem with scenes or anything like that. It would ideally be very simple. And we probably only have about 30 songs. I guess it might be best to look at it from the point that we're only designing lights for one song, and we want to have it synched via MMC as described. Now, imagine we start from scratch just like that 29 more times. Thanks for the suggestion! Look forward to hearing any other advice you might have.

Yes, MMC will simply trigger a show.

If you set up your show in a DMX controller to change scenes at the correct time time in the song (e.g., spot light whoever plays the intro, switch spot to singer when he starts, switch spot to whoever plays lead, etc.) then you only need to trigger the show at exactly the right time. Sending the midi signal at the right time could be tricky if you are doing it manually and playing an instrument at the same time, but it could be done.

You need something to send the MMC trigger. With the G2m you would eliminate the timing problem and would have a really slick midi triggering device. But there are a lot of things that can send the midi signal. If your band has a keyboard, that would be a great source to trigger the light show.

Apparently there's a lot of confusion as to what or isn't MMC.

Simple MIDI integration is NOT MMC. The Magic 260 doesn't support MMC, merely scene triggering, which is a function of MIDI via note on messages.

MMC is used to control tape decks/MTR's. To use this, the MTC needs to be stripped or have an abilility to read/write time code, often SMPTE via pre-striing. The timecode will drive the sequencer/DAW/NLE, while MMC will be used to automate start, stop, rewind, fast forward and thing like punching in and out. It's interesting to see a reel to reel start "spinning" out of control and then magically stop and the playback starts. With more modern devices(like the ADAT that has a method of embedding SMPTE), it works a lot better. Of course, there's stil the delay as things wind to their appropriate location, but it works. With most things going non-linear digital(read: not tape based), MMC has fallen off a bit.

Now that we've resolved that confusion, let's get back to work, shall we?

Using MyDMX, sync ain't gonna happen unless you bring MIDI to the table, and even then, sync is gonna suck. You do have viable options, but as I said, it wont be flawless. Just make sure you end each song sequence with your stage wash scene with no time limitation on it. This gives you endless time to deal with the next batch.

I get the whole need to fight the system. My in-laws do this constantly. They'll fight so damn hard to do things the wrong way, despite the cost in order to guarantee results contrary to what their end goals are. It's amusing, annoying and has driven their family business into the ground.

Now, for less than the cost of a new HDR, it's time to move on. Your choices are still limited, but all you need to do is buy an affordable laptop and an audio interface(lots of audio outs is nice!) that hopefully has a MIDI interface. These can be had for less than $100 if you go USB. You'll also need some sequencing software, such as Sonar, which even the lowest version will be over-kill for what you need. You can use the audio inputs to import your existing tracks. Then, you can drop in a MIDI track and program your MIDI triggers that go to MyDMX. You also get a ton more options.

Oh, MyDMX will need to run into another computer and will need a MIDI interface. I mention this now because I'd said that like a zillion times on here.

No offense about those HDR's, but I've seen thousands of those meet their deaths with bands. They aren't meant for that application. But, feel free to continue to use it, but i's not the right tool for the job. This is even more true when you're trying to step up the game.

Option 1: MyDMX again. Make your scenes for your ENTIRE show and all your songs.
Use your Sonar progam for MIDI purposes or at least for this discussion(it's what I've seen used a lot, but ProTools is more prevalent). You can open each song one by one in Sonar, and the song session contains a MIDI track that corresponds to what you want done in MyDMX, be it trigger one big complex scene per song, or lots of scenes per song, it doesn't matter. But again, this is a 2 machine operation.

Option 2:
If yo go with like Compu Show, you can shrink your footprint down to 1 laptop. This is where your show as one file makes more sense, and then you can skip around to the song you want. Label the hell out of everything. You can hard loop a at least a 2 bank MIDI interface. You'll want to use one bank for say, Sonar, and the other for EASY Show within Compu Show. You can put each song in its own session file in both Easy Show and Sonar or Pro Tools, but then you have to do 2 opens, which you don't want to do. You can adjust by adjusting your MTC start times in Sonar for what the "big session" file in Easy Show has associated with it. Or, you can just use Sonar to trigger scenes in Compu show directly, which works fine too. It really depends on your end results that you're after.

You can just use CompuShow for the whole thing(with Easy Show to handle your audio playback), but I don't recommend this because the audio handling capabilities are very minimal. You WILL need to set your Sound Device to be your audio interface as your default audio device as there's no real audio routing capability within the Compu Show product.


The thing is with Compu Show, it's proven to me to be a very stable platform. Another key factor is that with how it handles MIDI and even MTC(depending on what you want to do), it's very robust AND can run in the background. With MyDMX, it MUST remain the foreground application. If not, it can cause wonky things to happen at times.

So, lets get aware of what MMC is and isn't. MMC is transport control and punch in/out automation. Learn your terminology and expand your knowledge. But what we're talking about isn't MMC. It may seem like it, but it's not. Let's get off the MMC road, because it's leading you in the wrong direction.

Instead, let's get into the proper mindset. There's also going to be some costs involved as things are swapped out and upgraded.

Trust me when I say this:
I'm doing what I say and saying what I do, and working with some f the best in the biz who are going to back me up, as I back them up, and I make their tours happen.

Thanks Hobson. Yeah, our HDR trigger MMC, and we already have the interface to the laptop. We're sticking w/ the HDR because it's an olde rmodel and we can pick one up used for about $100 on Ebay. When things need adjusted on the fly, we'd much rather be working with fader than fumbling with a laptop. We've tried both, the HDR is much easier. We've considered going with a rackmount like the Alesis, but it has certain limitations that we can't work with unfortunately. If we're talking buying ANOTHER laptop, MORE software, redoing ALL of our existing backing tracks... just to do what we can already do with the HDR.... we're gonna stick wioth the HDR. After all, we're only running 2 ADJ Spot 250's and a handful of LED Par's and playing 500-1000 capacity venues. Plus, we move around a ton on stage. If sdomethign were to get destroyed I'd rather it be a $100 POS HDR than a laptop.
As far as audio routing within Easy show, I'm not sure why we'd need to worry about that either. The audio file is only really sitting on the timeline to make it easier to design the show. Once it's designed, you could delete the audio file and it wouldn't matter. The actual playback of the audio is all handled on the HDR.
The "one file" system just isn't practical though. Not if we want to keep a laptop off the stage anyway, which we do because I could practically guarantee we'd break one every few months at least. We either need something rack mountable or at the very least without hinged parts.
You are right though, we'd essentially be doing "two opens" for every song. One within Compushow (though Show Xpress seems to offer the same features at half the price) and one on the HDR. Since the laptop won't be on stage, someone will just have to simply open the file associated with the song on the setlist. The worst they could do is open the wrong one and even then that's better than what we have now, which is nothing. Assuming they're capable of opening the right file, all we have to do is pull up the song on the HDR which we already do. It takes maybe 5 seconds. I know MMC is transport control, but that's all we want it to do. I appreciate the advice, but it seems like I have to constantly reiterate what it is we're trying to do. We like have 8 tracks of backing track and click within one songs on a piece of hardware we're not afraid to run into on stage. With actual faders, AUX sends, etc, it allows us the flexibility to change things mid performance in what can sometimes be cramped quarters with low light. Besides that, it's a system we already have established that works as well, or better, for us than most bands who for some reason are completely cool with running backing tracks from a freakin' Ipod. Yeah, it works, but what if you need the click to be louder? Can you imagine fumbling with a laptop while playing drums trying to accomplish that? It's much easier to just tweak a fader. Studio42, you're suggestion seem like they would work quite well for a band with more resources than we have. We fund everything ourselves, and really couldn't afford to pay a lighting guy if we wanted to. If DMX controller software is capable of recognizing simple transport (not cue as I mentioned earlier... that may have been confusing) functions, that's essentially all we need. Buying some used lights and the most affordable software is really about the biggest step we're capable of taking at this point.
Ideally, yes, we'd like to work with a crew we can trust, have the whole show as one file, and use MTC to sync up the show with cue points being called up from the FOH. We'd also like a tour van that isn't fueled from plasma donations. Seriously though, I don't mean to suggest that your advice isn't appreciated. Hopefully when we become more established we can take your advice, but for the time being it appears to expensive for our needs.
So, yes. Simple transport functions. 2 "opens" per song. Open on the HDR and open on the laptop. Play on the HDR = play on the laptop, and from there it's good until the next song where we do it again. That's what we're looking for.

By the way, it's freaking awesome for a small time band person such as myself to get such timely responses from people who have obviously spent a considerable amount of time doing this. Thank you!

Yep. As Chris pointed out, I was confused about what you wanted to do on many levels.

At least I learned a lot for Chris myself. - again.

Best of luck.

It's difficult when someone is grasping incorrectly to a concept that doesn't apply and can't be used in this application. MMC isn't even in this picture. MTC is. Don't confuse TIMECODE with transport control and MTR automation.

You know what I'd do:
I'd have a guy off-stage, preferably off stage left(monitor world) or stage right(guitar world) who is handling your loading of songs.

In your case, I think you'd be best saying "screw sync", since you don't want it to happen. So why bother? Of course! Make a ton of usable scenes, then trigger them as needed.

Have your off stage guy load up your sonar sequences on a laptop. Have Compu Show programmed with triggers for your scene and switches. Make a buttload of scenes and switches. Trigger them via sonar. Let Sonar also play your backing tracks.

Now, in this case, there's no MMC(wasn't in the first place), there's no MTC(you're not using it anyways). Run your Sonar DAW sessions(audio with MIDI). Since you're tossing sync and ABANDONING the MMC you were never using in the first place, you're getting what you need.

Now, if you want "hingeless", you can lug a rack-mountd chassis, which honestly, might work better. Then put a flat panel in a somewhat customized rack. Use a wireless keyboard/mouse combo with a micro dongle and you're set there. Hook up your monitor and you're rocking and rolling. Or, if you connect this all into say a 12-16 space rack, you can roll it onto a job site. The monitor might take up to 8 rack spaces, the computer 4, leaving 4 spaces left. Patch panel, interface(s), power unit and 1 last space for something spiffy, assuming a 16-space rack. You might want to go dual-sided. I have done a few hundred of these that have been on the road for years with no problems. Well, hard drives fail, but they go out with 10 back-ups so it's no big deal, with another 10 drives ready to ship over-night around the world at a moment's notice. Oh, so that makes 20 back-ups per machine.

But, you're saying you need space in the van. Hell, a nice laptop in a padded SKB attache case with interface fits just fine.

Add an M-Audio Firewire 410 for under $400. You'll maybe need a secondary MIDI interface for under $120(probably under $80), which now puts you at Compu Show, which is a big chunk, I know.

OR:
you buy a second laptop, use the secondary MIDI interface on it, run MyDMX on it(this can be the lesser laptop) MyDMX must run by itself. Just trust me on this. It must run SOLO and be the foreground application.

Lose the MMC obsession. I can't stress this enough. Again, you aren't using it and you never have and never will, so please lose that term from your mind and vocabulary. MMC IS NOT want you want to do. Are we clear on that? Are you running tape-based media? No,you're not. MMC is moot.

Again, and I'll say it again:
MyDMX does NOT support transport control. Unless you're using a tape-based MTC(be it analog or digital), there is NO transport control.

You want sync? You need Compu Show. You want triggering? MyDMX can work but so can Compu Show. So, now think triggering. But you have to make changes. Now I'm finding out you need 8-channels of audio. That just means a better audio interface, and the Firewire 410 has 8 outs. Sonar can handle the interface and the outs. Upgrade the laptop to a 7200rpm hard drive for speedier file access, which will also boost overall performance(sub $100 costs if you can do it yourself).

I can design the system any way you want to, but you're insisting on doing something that can't work with what you want to do. My hands are tied. Your hands are tied. I get sticking with something tried and true. But, sometimes you have to let go. I'm using an old Mac to deal with email because it works the way I like to, but I know I'm on a countdown to failure because that hard drive ain't gonna last forever and SCSI hard drives aren't exactly as easy to come by.

So, make your choice. Move forward or be stuck with the limitations you have imposed upon yourself. But, either way you look at it, MMC won't be in your picture.

Oh, have I made it clear about MMC?

Say it:
"I'm not using MMC. MMC is not appropriate or applicable to my application."

Got it? Good.

Why don't you come up with a budget? Now I can really make things happen.

If I can put an A-list band around the world with a laptop with no problems doing 180+ shows with no problem and countless smaller bands, I think I can help you out too. Let go of the HDR and we can move forward.

Ok, did a little homework. The d1600 HDR actually transmits/receives MTC. I'm going to take your advice. Gone will be the individual songs files on the HDR. Instead I'll just make one long "song" basically consisting of every song we have w/ markers to cue specific songs. So, instead of a setlist for the person controlling the HDR (the drummer) he just needs a list of cues. We'll run MIDI out into a laptop on the side of the stage w/ DMX software on it. The exact same single "song" file consisting of all of our songs (so like a two hour song) will be placed into the timeline with the light show sequenced to that. When the cues are pulled up on the HDR the MTC should trigger the same cues on the laptop... from what I understand. While this seems relatively simple, I'm not sure why I couldn't wrap my head around it initially. Either way, it's gonna take some time to put this all together, but fortunately we'll be taking the next few months off to rehearse/record new material, so it's a great time for a rainy day project like this. If I'm still not quite getting what you're telling me, I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks!
Jon

by the way, feel free to check us out @ http://www.facebook.com/lacklusterband

so , are you purchasing Compu Show? If yes you will need at least the Compu Show SD model interface. The compu cue basic and compu cue will NOT do what you need. I just wanted to make that clear before you ran out and bought something.
Sincerely,

No, not purchasing CompuShow. I understand to do this I need to purchase a higher "tier" of service, and there are other programs that offer the same features at a fraction of the cost. Namely, Chauvet's ShowXpress. Sorry, like ADJ/Elation stuff, but the price for what's essentially just re-branded software and a generic dongle isn't worth forking over hundreds of dollars more than necessary. Love the lights though!

Ok well good luck.