A better controller for MyDMX?

Well the reason they don't work is cause you are moving the trigger location from bank 1 to bank 2. you cannot duplicate midi triggers on my dmx.
Welcome to the forums.
Sincerely,

Yep, got that, and in light of that I am still pretty satisfied with how the current setup works but I was hoping you had some suggestions about a more normal sized controller that will control MyDMX as well as the Nano does. It seems like there would be something larger but none of the boards I've seen are USB devices so I'm curous to know how to get a midi in/out/thru board (like a Scene Setter) to control the fixtures in MyDMX the as well as the Nano. Is it even possible? Or should I go with something other than MyDMX?

Uh on, another PEBKAC error.

First, I'm using the Korg nanoKONTROL with myDMX and it works great.

1: The Korg NanoKontrol works with 4 banks. Each bank contains 9 faders, 9 knobs and 18 buttons. Do the math.

When you change banks, it's the same as having a whole new set of faders, knobs and buttons. So, by using a "bank" function, it's as if you got 72 buttons, 36 knobs and 36 fader(Ok, there's your math) in a conveniently sized controller taking up a very small footprint.

Making sense now?

2: As Jingles said, you can't have duplicate MIDI controller/trigger information. But, you CAN program the nanoKONTROL to duplicate, which would be a bit silly, but hey, it's a super soft controller, which will let you do strange things.

3: Organization. For example, if memory serves(I'm too lazy to get my sheet), I have my MyDMX and nanoKONRTROL prgrammed as follows:
Bank 1, Faders 1-3 control RGB values on my 8 64 LED Pros. Fader 4 controls dimming. Repeating this, mentality for my 2 Color Fusions are channels 5-7 and 8 respectively.
All lights are individually addressed. None share addressing.

You CAN double/triple/multiple up on MIDI controller to DMX channels. But you can't use multiple MIDI controllers to do the same thing.

Let me go on about my controller layout:
Bank 1 still, fader 9 is dimming on my 2 Follow Spots, while knob 9 is color.

Same bank 1: Knobs 1-4 each control 16 channels assigned via dimmer packs associated with Par38's hanging off dimmer packs, 2 Par38's per channel, for a total of 32 Par38's via 16 DMX channels. Each knob controls 4 DMX channels, Red, Green, Blue, Yellow. Knobs 5-8 again, via dimmer packs, control my 4 Par36's, Red, Green, Blue, Yellow.

As you may be noting, I am having to repeat my work in programming, but so be it. It works as I need it to and I don't have to go through any hoop jumping.

Moving to Bank 2, I have assigned them as follows:
(Jingles is going to start throwing bricks at me, this is the Chauvet fixture channels, and before you start thowing items, what else is #2 associated with? Yeah, that's what I thought! Yes, symbolism!!!)
Fader 1 is Moving head 1 X, Fader 2 is Moving Head 1 Y
Knob 1 is Moving Head 1 X-fine, knob 2 is Moving head 1 Y Fine.
Faders and knobs 3-4 are for Moving Head 2, same concept.
Fader 5 is shutter(I don't have a dimmer) and knob 5 is color wheel. Fader 6 is Gobo, and knob 6 is gobo rotation. I still have channels available, but it's for things I rarely need on the fly.

Now, onto the Intimidator Colors, of which I really only need 2 things of the 4 channels available. Fader 7 is dimming, knob 7 is color. I rarely use the other 2 channels.

Moving to Bank 3, I am using those faders to control "high-tech FX" hanging off power packs.

Sure, while I can't do it all at once, I can quickly do a fair amount of things quickly by jumping from bank to bank.

Right now, Gray00, the problem is with how you expect things to work. There is no flaw at this point with MyDMX or the nanoKontrol. I think you were just unclear as to how banks function on the nanoKONTROL.

Why do you want the pin spots in multiple fader/knob banks on the nanoKontrol? what else do you have to control? I think knowing this information can help me to better understand your rig, your configuration and why you need to have this sort of control.

I'm using my nanoKONTROL just fine in shows with no problems outside of the fact that it seems I have to constantly re-program MyDMX because it seem to keep losing my controller learning. I could easily function without it, but I prefer to have a safety net just in case.

I own a set of the NANO controllers. The PAD works the same way. The KEY works in octave shifts. These would work better as scene triggers.

I Put my bricks down cause you said they were on #2 and i know what #2 stands for. and it is what they are. haha.
Sincerely,

First of all let me say that you guys are awesome at responding in a timely fashion with a wealth of information! Thank you very much! I agree there is nothing wrong with either product, I just need to get my head around it better. Here are the fixtures in the truss:
LED Par36 x2 (RGB only)
FusionFX Bar2 x2
FusionFX Bar3 x2
Oceana x1
A pair of lasers that are on their own board but can be added as a custom fixture into MyDMX (if I am not mistaken)
and some halogen floor lamps controlled with an SC-8 (very NIN).
There are no dimmer packs in this setup yet but there may be later as we add new fixtures.

We are using this setup in a "band" way as oppossed to a "DJ" way. The original idea was to be able to manually fade up most of the aspects of all the fixtures. I have taken note of how you have your Nano setup. Your approach is much better than mine and you've given me some new inspiration. Would you steer me away from using a Scene Setter (or similar) instead of MyDMX? Or should I really just buckle down and reconfigure the Nano similar to your post?

Thanks!

Well, as far as how you set up your nanoKONTROL with MyDMX, that's entirely up to you. I find it best to put out a real world example for you to look at. It doesn't mean I've done mine the best possible, but I did what works out well for me.

My main focus is on live sound reinforcement. My main client is festivals and bands. But the "show" I keep referring to is more of a theater-type presentation.

In the show I am working on, I have many scenes that use a specific color wash for one side, with another color wash for the other side. So, my nanoKONTROL configuration doesn't work so hot fo this show if I had to do stuff on the fly. Mostly though, I tend to bring up the 64 LED Pros as a bank of 8 on a single color when doing stuff on the fly.

Now, onto your fixtures. I would recommend some dimmers for the halogen floor lamps, you can do some cool stuff with those later. The ADJ/Elation DP-DMX20L can work as a dimmer/switcher pack per channel. Check the menus to be sure. I have some older DP-DMX20L's that are dimming only, which works fine for me. ADJ added the switching option some time ago at no extra cost. I have no desire to upgrade at this point in time though. My Aviator 8-channel pack does this function.

Also, keep this in mind: I also use my nanoKONRTROL with ProTools and Sony Vegas Pro. ProTools demanded I use a JLCooper CS102 pre-set profile for the nanoKONTROL. Oddly enough, I also have a real JLCooper CS102(but the power is wonky so I rarely use it anymore). Sony Vegas loses my configuration almost every time I update and it got old fast so I stopped using the controller wiht Vegas. ProTools: never an issue.

Back to your fixtures: Any DMX-512 fixture can have a profile made for it, so if your lasers are DMX capable, you sure could add those as well, although the 3D Visualizer may not "visualize" those for you.

In regards to your set-up, it's really hard to say what is best for you, especially since I'm not downloading and reading the manuals on anything. I could cop out and say to match your Fusion FX Bar2's onto the same set of faders on the same bank, and then repeat with different faders on a different bank(or different faders at least) for your Fusion Bar 3's. I'd probably assign a knob to the Par36's, either sepparately or together. Not sure what the Oceana is, but that's OK. If the Oceana is a DMX fixture, since it's unique in your mix, I'd definately give it it's own faders.

My real recommendation would be that once you're done playing with MyDMX and your nanoKONTROLLER, I think you might want to start programming scenes into MyDMX, instead of using it mainly as a live MIDI to DMX bridge for your controller to manipulate lighting. Of course, making scenes doesn't mean you can't do both, because you can. You can set channels for HTP or LTP, giving you some control where you need it. In the show I am working on, I have 2 follow spot operators, who keep overriding my spots(but that's a whole other issue). My scenes control dimming and color, I've pre-set focus, so I don't see why they feel the need to keep screwing with everything outside of "hit your target". I set these for LTP so that way should I need to over-ride(Which is sometimes necessary as I'm still designing the show), especially during pre-show, intermission and post show, I have the option available.

I think scenes are the way to go. Scenes can be as simple as a single step, or complex multi-step things. Regardless if your'e "live" or "theater" or "DJ", scenes can be a huge time and energy saver come show time. For me, the "show" is so heavily sequenced with scenes, I can literally hit my first cue and walk away for 97 minutes, it's that dead on and I have over 100 scenes(some of which are blackouts). When I work with bands, I have a different show of scenes, such as washes, pulses, strobes, movement, and on/off sequences as well as wash changes. I don't know what I may want to use, but they are organized so I can find things somewhat easier.

Personally, as far as a Scene Setter vs. MyDMX: you get way more functionality from MyDMX. Granted, you can only have 249 scenes at a time in MyDMX but you can quickly load a new show file between songs if need be. There's also lots of additional functionality that a Scene Setter can't provide. I think the Scene Setters have a fixed small amount of DMX channels, where-as MyDMX can give you a full 512 DMX channels, so you won't outgrow it unless you outgrow what you need from your DMX software. Plus, I have no idea if you're behaving as a tech or band member(or both). Last thing you really want to do is do your entire show live on the controller surface, regardless of how good you are at it. Using scenes not only saves you headache and stress, but even if you are "wrong" with your choice, it's no big deal to change to another scene. Chances are nobody will notice or care outside of yourself. Especially if you are IN the band playing, the last thing you want to do is tweak the surface while you're trying to play, you've got better things to do on stage.

You might associate "scene with song", and make a long scene with many steps that covers an entire song. Or you may choose to use some pre-done sequences of scenes chained together. Two or four things you definately need is a "white wash" for your between song stuff unless you like a diffent color. The other is a blackout, and I suggest two or three of them: a SNAP to blackout, a fast fade to blackout(say, 2-3 seconds) and a slow fade to blackout(around 10 seconds). Program these to a trigger so you can recall them easily and quickly.

Again, there's no single definitive "right way". There's mostly "What works best for you and your rig" is what is right for you. Having some working examples just helps you get some good ideas for how you may want to organize things. The rest, you're just going to have to figure out on your own, and the only way you can figure that out is to try it and see if works for you or not.

Awesome! We'll just keep using what we have. I really do like the combo anyway and we've not had the problems I've seen posted out here. The "disconnect/reboot/reconnect thing doesn't slow us down one bit. From an IT point, that's just the computer world. You have me pegged (musician playing on the stage) but I do have a small measure of tech skills and I'm an artist as well so I get the joy or researching endeavors like this. Our live show uses a "flat file" played on a laptop out of Sonar8. The drummer has a sub-group out to his headphones of a click track in the flat file. I guess I need to research syncing the lenghts of verses, choruses, bridges, etc. to lengths of time in the steps in MyDMX. Also, we sometimes hit the space bar to start/stop the songs on stage depending on where in the show we are or if there is an issue. Would we need to hit two start/stop buttons simultaniously to get the scenes synced with the songs on the audio laoptop? I may have digressed into the wrong questions here but this thread has already been MOST helpful!

If you're insisting on using two laptops on stage(one for pre-recorded tracks and one for MyDMX), all I can say is that you're making the right choice.

Also, if that's what you're into doing, you can really utilize a lot of the MIDI triggering functionality. When I do sequencing(please note, I used to be a professional musician, my main job now is as a live sound engineer, I'm putting my extensive IT knowledge to the background because it bores the hell out of me until it comes to routing and firewall tables), I use a blank first measure to "set up" the song. I don't do SysEx dumps during this measure, mainly patch changes and any initial CC data.

You can go two ways, with neither being an exclusive method because you can do both. Via scenes, you can trigger scenes via MIDI. You can also, with some practice and creativity, directly control lights via MIDI, as you're doing with your nanoKONTROL, but you can automate those same things via MIDI and play them back via MIDI as well.

You will need to have an available USB port on the computer for a MIDI interface, and you WILL need to use MIDI as the transport protocol(so, 2 MIDI interfaces, 1/laptop).

The shortcomings in MyDMX that will affect you are as follows: Your more complex scenes are time based(such as moving sequences when I use my moving yoke lights), so chances to time must be manually done because it's hard-coded into the scene. This isn't really a bad thing, but if you're doing stuff to time, then it starts to become more critical.

In the show I am working on, there are several scenes that have very exact time cues: a "drug injection" sequence that kicks of what the director calls "floorgasm", an explosion(that I chose to key in on), a series of movements(again, my call), a performer highlight(again my call), and there is this other scene in towards the end that has a series of notes that the director wants lights to change colors. This color change one is a bit of a challenge, but CAN be done.

In the case of the show, it's a matter of "hit play" on the BluRay and MyDMX at roughly the same time, but I am modifying my show to give me a few more "correction" points so more autonomy can be handed to me(I'm having to direct lighting, sound, video and playback all at once, which is a bit to much to direct AND run)

If you go with MIDI, you don't have to hit play anymore on MyDMX, just burn a channel for MyDMX(say, channel 16?) and do all your triggering and performance data for MyDMX on channel 16.

Really, at this point, your only limitations are what are either technicalogically imposed, or your imagination.

My two suggestions would be to add some space before and after all sequences. Again, I need that start-up measure, which can easily be used to trigger a lighting scene. Also, add a blank measure to the end(another trick I use) to come out of the song, which is where I'd add in your "between song wash" scene trigger.

With most bands I work with, they don't need pre-recorded tracks. Don't take this as a slam, I prefer it this way, too many bands CAN'T play anymore. That's not to say some can play and use pre-recorded tracks. I just know the Moody Blues were using 32-tracks of canned material, and it's like all the band was doing was being propped up by fence posts going through the motions until time for their evening medications.

But back to the bands I work with: Typically their light show expectations are low(as in none). I don't try to blow anyone away, but I try to mix it up a bit to keep it from getting boring. One band does a song where I have made a strobe scene that strobes then goes back to a wash color(same color: red), and I have to repeat this. I have to do this while mixing them, but this band has their act together so once the first song is done, there's really not much to do except keep tabs on their monitors until their female singer moves to center stage off her keyboard position.

Your usage of pre-recorded tracks acts as strength for your plans. With the audio playback, you can add a MIDI track to it. From there, you can drop in your triggers and controller data to help program your lighting. Your starting and stopping shouldn't be a big deal or a problem unless you've set up your scenes poorly. Again, this is where practicing offline and using the 3D Visualizer is going to show you problems in your design and let you fix them offline. Typical problems are not using the FADE on the scene if you DO or DO NOT want fade. The other two problems are the LOOP settings and the function of progressing to another scene(or not). These are mainly "attention to detail" settings.

I'm not going to go into audio interfaces and signal routing and monitors, you've clearly got that part nailed down.

For my shows, I'm typically having to do mains and monitors, while also trying to handle lighting and video. It's a mega pain in the butt. It helps tremendously when the band has their act together. Then I can deal with lighting a bit more, and sometimes video. You'll notice most of my shows use a static camera, mainly since I can't deal with adding video into the mix. Hey, it works, what can I say?

Awesome indeed. Thanks so much for your help. Now i don't suppose you could direct me to a tutorial or a forum thread on controlling the lights with a midi track in Sonar, could you? I've never done it but I feel confident I can make it happen with a nudge in the right direction...

That is both tricky and hard, depending on how you need to do certain things.

First, let's look at easy:

Sonar can record any CC and other MIDI data. This is trivial. Editing it may be a PITA, but I'm used to Master Tracks Pro and I barely use Sonar, which I have installed on my laptop. I mainly bought Sonar to help test with MyDMX, but I also need a PC-based MIDI/production package that wasn't ProTools either.

First things first though is I woul definately take some time in MyDMX to program washes and other things as scenes. This serves two purpuses for you: If these are "static" scenes" or at least pre-made(by you) scenes, there's no need to go through excessive MIDI automation in Sonar for everything. It's not worth the grief. Yes, you can automate everything if you so choose, but sometimes you really don't want to do that. But, I'll let you make that decision.

The second step, and this is the one I've put a bit more thought into, is in regards to CC controller data and automation, especially in regards to moving yoke fixtures. Here, movements might be timed to specific things in a song. Using the tempo in your MIDI sequence, you can really automate the hell out of your moving lights and other syncronized things super tight. The upside is that you get dynamic control here, not "static scene-based" stuff. It's more work, but you need to make your own call on this one.

Now, check this out:
Let's say you want to to some sort of syncronized lighting show with some movers, where you're shooting beams this way and that way and here and there, but want a HIGH degree of control: It can be done. But, it requires a 2-step process and it has drawbacks.

Step 1: You need to DOCUMENT your start and stop positions. PEN AND PAPER!! Make the values in MyDMX and notate those. Since MIDI goes 0-127 and DMX goes from 0-255, you'll notice a 2:1 ratio of DMX values to MIDI values. Best you can do with the protocols.

Step 2: Now you program in those values into Sonar. But, you can't just program in your star and stop points, you need to transition from A to B or you'll just SNAP to position(which is fine too if that's what you're after). It's a LOT more work. The advantage of doing this via MIDI is you can copy/paste easier and if you adjust tempo up or down, the sequencing will follow tempo because it's in the MIDI sequence, NOT in MyDMX.

Here's the drawback, but part of the purpose of using a lighting package, as well as the strength of a MIDI package: Let's say you're doing some sort of moving head thing, and you have both X and Y plus XFine and YFine channels. MyDMX will automatically deal with the "in between" values that need to occur to ensure SMOOTH(if that's what you want) movement between various points. Unless you program this all via MIDI, you won't get the same smooth movement, and trust me, it's not as simple as you'd like it to be. You'll realize this if you play with MyDMX and add 2 moving yoke fixtures, then have them do circles or something like that. You'll notice X,Y, Xf and Yf values for each point, which you can take advantage of, but if you watch the faders and values during the scene, wow, not so pretty.

The good news is that you can mix and match as you see fit and for what works for you. There's no rule. If you want to hard-code your scenes into your sequencer, then so be it. If you want to use Sonar to trigger scenes, again, so be it. If you want to do both, then nobody is going to stop you either because that can work too.

Now here's another tricky part: you're most likely going to want to use a "LTP" configuration for virtually all your channels. You need to be in USER mode to trigger scenes, but when you're in USER mode, you can't get MIDI control(say, controller) unless DMX channels are set for HTP or LTP. This isn't a bad thing, but it is something to be made aware of.

An advantage of doing a combination of MIDI and scene is that finally, you can overlay scenes(so to speak). You could trigger a movement scene, then underlay a wash via MIDI. This multi-step task can get around many of the issues many MyDMX users whine about, such as combining scenes. The degree of complexity is really only limited by what lights you have and imagination.

In the show I am doing, I am combining video(2 projectors, a main and a supplemental), audio with monitors(2-track mains to advance to 7.1 surround and 2 channel of foldback). There are a few scenes in MyDMX that could have benefitted from MIDI assisting things, but I was a bit more creative and had to manually make it happen. In this case, this was the exception, not the rule and it would make more sense to do it within MyDMX.

It really comes down to how much work do you want to do, which will be determined by what you want to do with your light show. Of course, you're never locked into anything because you can add lights and change whenever you want to. You can save multiple show files and call them up as necessary.

The main issue is one of the first things you addressed, is that you're not going to do MIDI/audio sequencing on the same machine as MyDMX(outside of your controller perhaps). The two laptop solution is stable and reliable.

Your biggest technical issue is ensuring that whatever you associate with a trigger and/or controller for MyDMX via your nanoKONTROL is that you document that, and then use those same triggers/controller numbers(and MIDI channels) within Sonar. This just requires paying attention and documentation, that's all. After that, connecting the laptops up via MIDI(must be MIDI, no USB to USB cables)

Got it?

Did I understand you to say that you use two nano controllers? So we could simply plug a second nano into an available usb port and use the two nanos simultaneously? That would be quite a fix. Can we do that?

No, you DID NOT understand me correctly. I only use 1 nanoKONTROL. I only own one, so hard to use 2. Plus, with myDMX taking a USB port, mouse on another, this leaves me with only one available USB port for a controller. And yes, I've tried running my Korg nano-items off a USB hub and they work just fine with Sonar Home Studio, but MyDMX wont see their data when hanging off a USB hub. My hub is powered and is a USB 2.0 hub.

This is not to say you CAN'T use 2 nanoKontrol unts. You could, but you need to take the extra time to ensure they are BOTH programmed differently. But one thing I worry about is that will the Korg driver allow for this to happen? I know for sure it will allow each unit to be programmed, but will it let two identical(model) units be used at once? That I am not sure. I'm also not willing to spend the money to find out if I can run 2 at once, so I won't be able to test my theory.

Now before I get too far head: you mentioned controlling myDMX with Sonar. You can swap Sonar with ProTools, Cubase, Stienberg and a buttload of other professional(and not so professional) MIDI sequencing software packages. But, if you're going with this idea, please do your sequencing on another computer, NOT the same one you want to run MyDMX on live. I happen to have Sonar, but I could even do this with my old ProTools 442 system that runs on a PowerMac 7100/66 and Master Tracks Pro. The sequencing package isn't critical to the discussion.

The strength of MyDMX is that is does a lot of the "in between" stuff between scene points or even scenes on the fades. This can all be done via sequencing, but it takes more qork. This can be done, just takes some practice.

You will need to go MIDI interface and MIDI cable from computer to computer. You MUST use MIDI to transfer the data. No way around this. Those USB A-A cables used for "data sync" between machines is only viable for that functionality.

Why would you need two nanoKONTROL's? Just 1 gives you 36 faders, 36 knobs and 72 buttons. A nice thing I use to cheat is I will "multiple up". Here's how that makes sense. I'm not going to go into my whole configuration:

I have 8 ADJ 64 LED Pros. I may soon have 8 Elation ELED RGB Zooms or 8 Elation Opti Tri Par's. But, let's focus on the 64 LED Pros. Each one is assigned a unique channel so there is no sharing or overlap, which is essential for my show designs. I use Bank 1, Fader 1 to control RED on all 8 64 LED Pros. I repeat with Fader 2 for Green, Fader 3 for Blue and I think then I went Fader 4 for Dimmer. Using another fixture type, the American DJ Color Fusions, I repeated the same pattern for my 2 Color Fsions using Channels 5-8 respectively. This left me knob and fader 9 wide open, which I associiated with my 2 DMX-capable follow spots: fader for dim and knob for color wheel.

Bank 1, knobs 1-4 are used to control Par38 Cans, RGB and Yellow respectively. I have 32 Par38's so each knob controls 8 cans via 4 dimmer packs(2/channel). Knobs 5-8 control my Par36's off a dimmer, RGB and Yellow respectively.

After that I get confused. I know bank 2 controls my movers, which have some shared and some not shared controls. I also have some color-wheel wash lights that I control on bank 2.(there's a reason they are on bank 2. Only Jingles knows why!). Bank 3 is used to control foggers for now: a fogger, hazer and ground fogger. Bank 4 is reserved for specials, which I rarely use anyways(they rarely get hooked up).

I would need to see why you would need 2 nanoKontrols. At the same time I can't see why it would be impossible provided they are programmed different. I would also take an extra step on this. Because the nano-series comes in white AND black, don't need to label them! Just buy one in each color. I went for white, but the black ones look cool as well. It's really up to the effort you put in to setting things up. Once you push the configuration to the controller, it sticks

In my situation, I had to configure my nanoKONTROL to emulate a JL Cooper CS102(which is odd because I have one of those as well) for use with ProTools. There is even a downloadable profile for this. Even so, that shot to hell my configuration I did with MyDMX. My resolution was to simply redo the MyDMX stuff, which took like 5 minutes. Since ProTools is the main application, the JL Cooper CS102 is the priority function.

I think should this idea not work, I think Akai makes a similar type of series of products that may fit the bill for being a second controller. If you live near me, I'd let you try using 2 NanoKONTROLS to see if it would work.

Any more questions, ask away. It's definately ON TOPIC.

Just a reminder: Sequencing and MyDMX should NOT operate on the same computer at the same time. Less buggy..