k bought the newer version of the american audio dls-15 and the flyware to go with it. what are you guys using to actually hang the speakers? chain? wire cable?looked at lowes and everything says not for overhead lifting,
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Wow, you're going to get yourself into a lot of trouble fast.
So, you've made a good start buying flyable speakers with the essential flying hardware.
Me personally, I'm using KV2 Audio. My gear is rigged with fly points. This summer I'm buying some additional hardware so I can fly them in case a promoter wants to do that.
When I've worked shows where the PA was flown, it was done via chain and motors. Considering this is NOT a fixed installation, that's why motors and chains are used. I however am not a certified rigger and I won't fly hardware myself.
I've seen flying done with steel cable for fixed installs, but it's smaller boxes and fewer per individual hang.
First, in your situation: why isn't a speaker on a pole sufficient? Is this mobile?
Second: You'd want to have a chain rated for as heavy as you can get. Most of the stuff in hardware stores is intended ot secure something, like a bike. It's not intended to secure things to a moviing vehicle, such as a wrestling ring to a trailer or a load of heavy logs.
This really all depends on what you want and how you want it done. If you hang via 1 point, your speaker can swing and twist. Not good. 2 points and you minimize twist, but can still swing. Use 3 points and now you can steer up/down as well as reduce swing. You want to of course get these over people's heads so they can't grab or hang off them. Trust me, no matter how stupid you think people are, and how much you prepare for any possible thing they can do, there's some idiot out there who wants to out-stupid the rest. Do your due dilligence, it's best you can do. Short of an electronic cage to electrocute anyone who tries to touch the speaker(and that's gotta be an insurance and fire marshal issue), there's only so much you can do.
If I were you and you wanted to fly the rig, I'd spend a little money if you have ot and talk to a local large sound company and/or lighting company. You might have to pay them for time, some won't charge you. Like if you were to talk to me about it, I'd probably not charge you for it. But, and I know my phone number is in my signature here, before you call me, let me remind you again that I am not a rigger and I personally DO NOT FLY my speakers because am not a certified and qualified rigger. I am NOT certified, and I am NOT qualified. As this is a tremendous safety issue(a drop CAN kill several people at once), it's not something I want to take on myself until I can pass some sort of rigging program. Based on the show I am working on, I am motivated to acquire those skills though. My wife can help me with the math, she's a freakin' math wizard.
If you're doing a permanent install, most civil engineers have sufficent skills to help with loading and things like that. Your contractor can help you here as well. MAKE SURE THEY've DONE THIS BEFORE!!!
So, you've made a good start buying flyable speakers with the essential flying hardware.
Me personally, I'm using KV2 Audio. My gear is rigged with fly points. This summer I'm buying some additional hardware so I can fly them in case a promoter wants to do that.
When I've worked shows where the PA was flown, it was done via chain and motors. Considering this is NOT a fixed installation, that's why motors and chains are used. I however am not a certified rigger and I won't fly hardware myself.
I've seen flying done with steel cable for fixed installs, but it's smaller boxes and fewer per individual hang.
First, in your situation: why isn't a speaker on a pole sufficient? Is this mobile?
Second: You'd want to have a chain rated for as heavy as you can get. Most of the stuff in hardware stores is intended ot secure something, like a bike. It's not intended to secure things to a moviing vehicle, such as a wrestling ring to a trailer or a load of heavy logs.
This really all depends on what you want and how you want it done. If you hang via 1 point, your speaker can swing and twist. Not good. 2 points and you minimize twist, but can still swing. Use 3 points and now you can steer up/down as well as reduce swing. You want to of course get these over people's heads so they can't grab or hang off them. Trust me, no matter how stupid you think people are, and how much you prepare for any possible thing they can do, there's some idiot out there who wants to out-stupid the rest. Do your due dilligence, it's best you can do. Short of an electronic cage to electrocute anyone who tries to touch the speaker(and that's gotta be an insurance and fire marshal issue), there's only so much you can do.
If I were you and you wanted to fly the rig, I'd spend a little money if you have ot and talk to a local large sound company and/or lighting company. You might have to pay them for time, some won't charge you. Like if you were to talk to me about it, I'd probably not charge you for it. But, and I know my phone number is in my signature here, before you call me, let me remind you again that I am not a rigger and I personally DO NOT FLY my speakers because am not a certified and qualified rigger. I am NOT certified, and I am NOT qualified. As this is a tremendous safety issue(a drop CAN kill several people at once), it's not something I want to take on myself until I can pass some sort of rigging program. Based on the show I am working on, I am motivated to acquire those skills though. My wife can help me with the math, she's a freakin' math wizard.
If you're doing a permanent install, most civil engineers have sufficent skills to help with loading and things like that. Your contractor can help you here as well. MAKE SURE THEY've DONE THIS BEFORE!!!
the speakers are going in a night club which is why they need flow,its a permanent install. I will be using three attachment points on each cabinet. i have found plenty of chains rated for what i plan on doing weight wise, all with remarks that say not for hanging overhead. when researching chain for hanging, it is super mondo 4400 pound rated and like 8 bux a foot. i also will be running saftey wire in the same manor i am running the chain to just be double sure. i understand the liability in you telling me "yeah sure as long as it says it will hold the weight" as well as the liability of hanging speakers 20ft in the air give or take. just asking theoretically of course
Well, you've got the right attitude. Find your fly points, use chain rated at least 3:1 for your weight, and you're doubling up by using safety cable, which should NOT be secured to the same points as the chain because what if the point fails?
At $8/foot, it's not that big of a deal to me, not because I got money oozing out of my pores(I'm broke as hell), but because I think that UNLESS you have a massively high ceiling, you won't need a whole lot of chain.
It's not like when I've seen them doing big shows and it's a 100-foot or 50-foot chain going through the motor. Assuming those are $8/foot, well, mega ouch.
Considering whatever chain they were using and whatever motor they were using, they were flying 8 VDOSC cabs per side off 1 motor and 1 chain because the idiot casino refused to set 2 fly points per side for sound. Constant problems with the angles so we had to put a rope coming down to adjust for the proper angle. It just became an ongoing joke and hassle with them.
I have these folding stands that claim to hold 300 pounds, and what I intend to place on them weighs 150 pounds(2 cabs stacked), but the stand itself is "tested" to withstand 900 pounds of weight. I have no intention of testing that. I will say they did hold the 2 speakers, plus 150 pounds of me at the same time, which is WAY more than I needed. This application can be seen on my web site. Look for the big stack pictures, that's what I'm talking about.
Back to your concern, but let's use numbers I can work with. If I was to hang 2 of my KV2 Audio speakers, and with additional hardware, the 75-pound each cabinets will probably come to still under 200 pounds total flying weight with side bars and flying bracket/mount. I'd expect if I were to use motors, I'd want at least a 500 pound motor, but if I could get one rated at 1000 pounds, I'd be happier. Or rigging points with those ratings. EACH!! This way if any one fails, the rest should be able to take up the load. But this is considering a mobile and/or touring application, which is all stuff you fortunately don't have to deal with.
You definately want to have someone come out and check out where you want to fly the speakers from. Don't assume your ceiling trussing or joists are sufficient for what you now want to do, or whatever structure you are intending to attach to. That's why you want someone to come out. Plus, this is stuff your insurance can not crap in their pants over since you again did due dilligence: You got someone to say that its either OK or you need to have this or that done, plus you had someone qualified to get it done to do it, then it can be inspected and signed off on and everyone's happy except you because it cost you extra money. If you do anything to the structure, you need a permit. Chances are, you're going to need a permit for the work.
One last thing: think maintenance. What if... what if you blow a driver(why aren't you front-ending with a speaker processing rack in front of your amps?) or cleaning or inspection. Anything you put in CAN fail just because stuff happens. Be prepared.
You owe use photos of the before and after. OK?
At $8/foot, it's not that big of a deal to me, not because I got money oozing out of my pores(I'm broke as hell), but because I think that UNLESS you have a massively high ceiling, you won't need a whole lot of chain.
It's not like when I've seen them doing big shows and it's a 100-foot or 50-foot chain going through the motor. Assuming those are $8/foot, well, mega ouch.
Considering whatever chain they were using and whatever motor they were using, they were flying 8 VDOSC cabs per side off 1 motor and 1 chain because the idiot casino refused to set 2 fly points per side for sound. Constant problems with the angles so we had to put a rope coming down to adjust for the proper angle. It just became an ongoing joke and hassle with them.
I have these folding stands that claim to hold 300 pounds, and what I intend to place on them weighs 150 pounds(2 cabs stacked), but the stand itself is "tested" to withstand 900 pounds of weight. I have no intention of testing that. I will say they did hold the 2 speakers, plus 150 pounds of me at the same time, which is WAY more than I needed. This application can be seen on my web site. Look for the big stack pictures, that's what I'm talking about.
Back to your concern, but let's use numbers I can work with. If I was to hang 2 of my KV2 Audio speakers, and with additional hardware, the 75-pound each cabinets will probably come to still under 200 pounds total flying weight with side bars and flying bracket/mount. I'd expect if I were to use motors, I'd want at least a 500 pound motor, but if I could get one rated at 1000 pounds, I'd be happier. Or rigging points with those ratings. EACH!! This way if any one fails, the rest should be able to take up the load. But this is considering a mobile and/or touring application, which is all stuff you fortunately don't have to deal with.
You definately want to have someone come out and check out where you want to fly the speakers from. Don't assume your ceiling trussing or joists are sufficient for what you now want to do, or whatever structure you are intending to attach to. That's why you want someone to come out. Plus, this is stuff your insurance can not crap in their pants over since you again did due dilligence: You got someone to say that its either OK or you need to have this or that done, plus you had someone qualified to get it done to do it, then it can be inspected and signed off on and everyone's happy except you because it cost you extra money. If you do anything to the structure, you need a permit. Chances are, you're going to need a permit for the work.
One last thing: think maintenance. What if... what if you blow a driver(why aren't you front-ending with a speaker processing rack in front of your amps?) or cleaning or inspection. Anything you put in CAN fail just because stuff happens. Be prepared.
You owe use photos of the before and after. OK?
I am actually thinkung about doing the same thing here. I plan to "hang" two 100lb speakers about 10 to 12 feet behind the bar where it would be out of reach from everyone who would be smart enough to try to swing from them. I think three 3ft chains would be enough since i will make a ledge to rest the speakers as well (keeping in mind that the speakers would be between 30 to 45 degree angles. Although i cannot be at ease by thinking that they could never fall.
Well, vertigoreality has the right idea of being semin-redundant. His idea to use chains with safety cable back-ups(or steel wire for back-up) is a good step in the right direction and I'm glad he thought of the same idea on his own. He's obviously concerned about worse case scenario.
But you bring up another concern of simply worrying that regardless of rating of the chains, it could still fail, which is an unfortunate reality that could occur. If the points fail, and the safeties are done wrong then those can fail too. Honestly, I wouldn't know a good point from a bad point, it's up to a house guy to know the rigging points, and a rigger to raise my stuff up. I like to be "hands off" on that until I receive proper training.
Your idea for a shelf or soffit mounts might be preferable in your case. You could actually build out the wall a bit and then build the soffits to contain the speaker FULLY around the edges so that it simply CAN NOT come out. You could put a steel grill around the front as well to provide further protection, mainly from guests. Done properly, it should be as safe as anything else. Then, I suppose if you wanted to use chains(which I don't think would be as necessary), you would just need them as a fail-over in case the front of the soffit should fail and the speaker were to slip out.
In all my years, I've only seen one soffit fail, and it was simply due to age. Some not as good quality wood used way back when finally gave up and broke. This was part of the opening area. Even at that, the rest of the soffit was fine and the speaker didn't move. I think the owner did the repair himself, fairly capable guy. It was a home theater.
But you bring up another concern of simply worrying that regardless of rating of the chains, it could still fail, which is an unfortunate reality that could occur. If the points fail, and the safeties are done wrong then those can fail too. Honestly, I wouldn't know a good point from a bad point, it's up to a house guy to know the rigging points, and a rigger to raise my stuff up. I like to be "hands off" on that until I receive proper training.
Your idea for a shelf or soffit mounts might be preferable in your case. You could actually build out the wall a bit and then build the soffits to contain the speaker FULLY around the edges so that it simply CAN NOT come out. You could put a steel grill around the front as well to provide further protection, mainly from guests. Done properly, it should be as safe as anything else. Then, I suppose if you wanted to use chains(which I don't think would be as necessary), you would just need them as a fail-over in case the front of the soffit should fail and the speaker were to slip out.
In all my years, I've only seen one soffit fail, and it was simply due to age. Some not as good quality wood used way back when finally gave up and broke. This was part of the opening area. Even at that, the rest of the soffit was fine and the speaker didn't move. I think the owner did the repair himself, fairly capable guy. It was a home theater.
ok they are hung. i am using 880 lbs chain connected with 1550lbs shackles connected to forged eyebolts rated at 1250lbs at three poins on the 48lbs cabinets. going up and over the main I-beams in the building. not to mention i have 550lbs safety wire as well connected to different points on the speakers, than the chain. i talked with a local theater company and spoke with him off the record, and with how i have it i have gone way above what was necessary. based on the safe working load being 880lbs i am using a ratio of 18:1 and my safety wire is 11:1 .yes things can fail and i am confident i have done everything in my power to prevent it. only difference between me doing it and a pro rigger would be my pocket would be lighter and the liability would be on him not me. (in so many words of course)
well, the main thing I am concerned about is your rigging points.
I would take it by i-beams, you are talking about steel i-beams. Chances are you're safe, but your insurance company might want to get a second opinion. At least you've done some due dilligence in being redundant and over-engineered.
Just keep in mind that over engineering won't replace proper enigneering.
May you never have an accident and may all your guests be happy. I would prefer things to remain that way above anything else.
I would take it by i-beams, you are talking about steel i-beams. Chances are you're safe, but your insurance company might want to get a second opinion. At least you've done some due dilligence in being redundant and over-engineered.
Just keep in mind that over engineering won't replace proper enigneering.
May you never have an accident and may all your guests be happy. I would prefer things to remain that way above anything else.