Best Lighting Choice for Jazz Quartet

you may want to look into possibly the elation architechual line. Might be a oil higher priced but is able to withstand outdoor use. I believe the reason we dont offer a warranty if they are used outdoors is because it is not really a controlled atmosphere. I think that is why. I'm sure there are other reasons but that is what I can think of for now.
Welcome to the forums. Sincerely,

Unless you're grinding grass and flowers into your lights, there is no way for ADJ to know you used your stuff outdoors. But, they are stating the warranty is void to make you afraid. The main reason is that outside, you could be rained on. Water and electricity isn't a great combination. So, even if the fixture is grounded, it isn't made moisture-proof. We're talking safety.

But what if some nimrod turns on the fire suppression system/sprinklers inside? It's indoors. It's possible. Warranty still valid?

Go with your original plans. I've used my lights outside tons of times with no problem.

I'm guessing, but 2 Punch Pros would be sufficient, I'm guessing. Or you could double it. You're just concerned with washing with sufficient light to see any sheet music you may or may not have on hand.

Be smart, be safe, and use a power strip of some sort. Should the weater turn, kill your power, strike and run for shelter.

The LED fixtures are way light. If you do a T-bar or at least a tripod stand and an O-clamp with a safety pin, you're setting up super fast. Get a nice little DMX Operator 192, some good DMX cables(don't use mic cables even though they look the same) and you're good to go. Bet you have lights up and running in less than 10 minutes. Get some basic tools, such as an outlet tester. I also carry a multi-meter, ammeter and I test the voltage and draw, but that might be a big much. Get some Arriba cases and you should have portability, quick set and strike. Since you're going LED, you have low power draw. Sweet scenario!

On outdoor gigs, the people hiring me are responsible for all damage as a result of weather. When they see my rig, they realize that this might not be a good thing covering my possible expenses in the event of bad weather. So, they hire someone else. Fine with me, let their crap get ruined! Summer is much better for outdoor gigs anyways.

I have an outdoor gig scheduled for July. I'm using my 64B LED Pros for the stage.

Yea, outdoor use is just common sense. There really shouldn't be a problem. I've used all sorts of gear outdoors with no problems resulting from it.

You just need to be aware of the weather forecast and then make your plans accordingly. You would be making the same arrangements based on the same concerns with your instruments, PA, and other gear as well. Lighting would just be another element to add into the mix.

A humid night indoors could be just a detrimental to humidity outdoors (possibly even worse since there is usually little air flow indoors).

Go with the LEDs. No lamps to change, low power consumption, low heat, lightweight, flexible programming options, desired results. They're the best option for wash lighting without the use of good old par cans and dimmers.

Architectural lighting could always work, but you're starting to talk big dollars. Chauvet offers some outdoor-rated LED equipment, but it's quite pricey anyway. Elation has some stuff that will do the job too.

Thank you for all of your advice. I live in Southern California. From April till October we rarely have rain and the humidity is fairly low so I am not too concerned about the possibily of the lights getting wet.

Would it be possible to link two Punch LED Pros together as slave/master and do simple color changes and fades with the intelligence of the Punch units then get a controller later?

Sure, you could link the master/slave and just let the lights respond to the sound. Doesn't sound like you want to blow them away, just add a little extra "color" to your performance.

If you go with a DMX fixture, such as the Punch Pro, you just configure it for the mode you want. You never lose that DMX functionality, you just have to wait until you get a controller to handle it.

I play in a blues/rock trio and we use the following for what looks like a great light show that sets up & tears down fast (and didn't break the bank):

* 2 x 900w stage washes aimed across the front along the mic line (these color us and are set to scroll colors very slowly - not chained to the DMX controller, though they are DMX fixtures).
* 4 x small color changers on 2 DMX channels (in pairs) on trees at the rear corners of the stage. 2 of these (inner pair - DMX channel 1) point straight out to the floor even with the vocal monitors. The outer pair (DMX channel 2) point across the stage at the floor just outside each of our front 2 mic stands for a 'crossing' effect.
* 1 x small color changer we point at our stage backdrop/banner (DMX channel 3).
* 4 tiny pin spots that are on a dimmer set for DMX channel 4.
* An Elation/ADJ FC400 foot controller that the bass player uses to change scenes I set up in about an hours worth of screwing around with it at home one day.

The FC400 lets you set up 12 static scenes and scroll through them manually. You can get real elaborate with it if you like, but I use mine just as a color & scene controller, very old school I guess. It's about the size of a wanker guitar player's small pedalboard and can be tucked out of the way and only hit on the sly when you want to change stage scenes. Once you understand how to set up the scenes manually, it's really easy to program your light show so it'll look good and be a real no-brainer to run from stage during sets. I set up a couple scenes with all one color on all channels (a red scene, a blue scene, etc), a few with different colors (orange + blue, etc), a couple scenes with only one channel on and the others set to blackout for psuedo 'movement' (with no moving fixtures), one channel strobe + one all dim blue with a white spot on the stage banner (for breaks). I've had more than one person ask who's running the lights and I just point to the bass player. Then he's stuck showing the person our lighting setup and I hit the bar. ;D

Personally I HATE lights that respond to music for bands of any kind. People go out to watch the players in bands as much as listen to them and blinking lights detract from the performers. It's fine for DJ and recorded music because the lights for the most part are as much of the show as the music is while the dancers are on the floor, but venues hire bands as entertainers and if you just have non-stop blinking from your jazz quartet's lights, you might as well just use a bunch of colored strobes and save yourself a few hundred bucks. Keep your lights subtle and do NOT set them to respond to music. Change scenes when YOU want to change them and they'll have more visual impact for live music than a constant barrage of flashing lights. You want your lights to be subtle, yet cleverly theatrical, not modern techno - or am I wrong about this?

My 2 cents are :: Slow scrolling (and I mean as slow as the fixture will go so it's virtually not even noticable) for the front lights, with some nice scenes spread across the rear of the stage and a foot controller like the FC400 and you're good to go. I speak from experience using everything from 2 washes to 2 semis full of gear traveling across 2 continents over the last 34 years playing music. For the stinky little bar band I play in these days, an FC400, 5 small color changers and a couple stage washes look like a million bucks. In stinky little bars - and even in some larger places and smaller outdoor gigs it's just fine. Add a few pin spots and it looks like you're on tour in most places.

I wouldn't steer another player wrong.


Cheers,
- JJ

quote:

Posted 01 April 2008 11:10 PM Hide Post
I play in a blues/rock trio and we use the following for what looks like a great light show that sets up & tears down fast (and didn't break the bank):

Don't we all!

quote:

* 2 x 900w stage washes aimed across the front along the mic line (these color us and are set to scroll colors very slowly - not chained to the DMX controller, though they are DMX fixtures).

There goes one full 15-amp circuit right there.

Maybe a Power Punch would be better? Could be set to sound active? You've got to cut your power consumption. Even if it's a 20-amp cirucit, you've only got 600 more watts to spare. Chances are, you're going to get a 15 amp breaker to run your lights. Front-end it with some sort of power unit that will "pop" so you don't pop venue breakers. This way, you pop your breaker, go into "aw crap" mode, reset and keep going.

quote:

* 4 x small color changers on 2 DMX channels (in pairs) on trees at the rear corners of the stage. 2 of these (inner pair - DMX channel 1) point straight out to the floor even with the vocal monitors. The outer pair (DMX channel 2) point across the stage at the floor just outside each of our front 2 mic stands for a 'crossing' effect.

You're going to need more DMX chanels than that. Minimum of 2. One for the dimmer, one for the color wheel. Minimum!

quote:

* 1 x small color changer we point at our stage backdrop/banner (DMX channel 3).

Same issue as above. You're out of channels already. Not saying it can't be done though.

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* 4 tiny pin spots that are on a dimmer set for DMX channel 4.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem. Get a dimmer pack, set it to one DMX channel, there you go. Despite having 4 channels available, this is a good way to do it. Then load it up with 4 Par 36's.

quote:

* An Elation/ADJ FC400 foot controller that the bass player uses to change scenes I set up in about an hours worth of screwing around with it at home one day.

Not familiar with this one. Heard it around here plenty, just not familiar with using one.

quote:

The FC400 lets you set up 12 scenes and scroll through them manually. It's about the size of a wanker guitar player's small pedalboard and can be tucked out of the way and only hit on the sly when you want to change stage scenes. Once you understand how to set up the scenes manually, it's really easy to program your light show so it'll look good and be a real no-brainer to run from stage during sets. I set up a couple scenes with all one color on all channels (a red scene, a blue scene, etc), a few with different colors (orange + blue, etc), a couple scenes with only one channel on and the others set to blackout for psuedo 'movement' (with no moving fixtures), one channel strobe + one all dim blue with a white spot on the stage banner (for breaks).

Well, if the FC-400 can do scenes, then the DMX channel usage issues should be moot. Program your scene and then stomp your way through your show. Nothing wrong with that.

quote:

I've had more than one person ask who's running the lights and I just point to the bass player. Then he's stuck showing the person our lighting setup and I hit the bar. ;D

Well, then it sounds like whatever you're doing, you're doing it right. Don't change!

quote:

My 2 cents are :: Slow scrolling (and I mean as slow as the fixture will go so it's virtually not even noticable) for the front lights, with some nice scenes spread across the rear of the stage and a foot controller like the FC400 and you're good to go.

I would agree. You don't want those lights changing all the time, it becomes a distraction for band and audience. Slower the better.

quote:

I wouldn't steer another player wrong.

Cheers,

I want to thank eveyone for the additional advice. I want to keep the initial lighting as simple as possible and as subtle as possible (nothing flashing or blinking) just simple color changes or fades. Reading the manual for the Punch LED Pro the unit has a color change mode and a color fade mode. How slow can I make the colors change to provide a subtle effect that is basically on autopilot. Would this work for us to get started (two Punch LED Pros wired together master/slave)?

Also power is always an issue when we do private parties at private homes (many just have a 200 amp service and we are lucky if we can get power from two different 15 amp circuits) so I am convinced that LED is the way to go.

Well, not sure about all the stuff you can set for the Punch Pros. I'll download the manuals and check it out. But my thoughts are yes, you could stuck those on auto-pilot mode in master/slave. It's the speed thing, but I'm sure there's some sort of software setting on the fixture you can program in via the panel.

200-amp service at a residence? Wow! I only have 120-amps of service and my mains draw 130-amps. I don't even want to think what my lights would pull running flat out.

Going LED, your power draw should be super SUPER low(maybe 2 amps max) with those Punch Pros, so don't worry about it.

What's your jazz configuration? What are you bringing for PA?

Not to name brands, but I have found I can run 2 Mackie SRM450's and 2 SRS1500A(subs) off a single 15 and cover 300 people NO problem. Going KV2 Audio, I have run my ES 1.0's with an ES 2.5 sub with an EPack 2500 per side on a single 15-amp and covered 500 for weddings with no problem(despite the fact that's 40 amps of current I could potentially tap).

I'm not advocating active over active drive vs. passive or multi-pin connections using an external cross-over unit. Just depends on how you use your stuff.

I'm assuming acoustic drums, maybe a small mixer, small guitar rig and small bass rig. Heck, you can get a LOT out of a 30-watt amplifier for bass and guitar, especially if putting it through the PA and mic'ing it up.

Hit my web site if you want to chat, although I may be off the chat clients the rest of the day. I am evaluating a slide scanner. I think I need to already get something better, but this one is a keeper as well.

Following up:

You can set a Punch Pro in various non-DMX mode. There are static color and color change modes, in addition to master/slave.

Chances are you'd want the color fade mode. You set that up according to the instructions(very straight-forward), and then adjust the speed from a setting from 1-99. Not sure which is slowest, so might want to play with that a little bit. You'd know in less than 5 minutes if 1 or 99 is the slowest setting.

Set that one up as MASTER and then set the other one up as SLAVE and connect a DMX cable between them and you're done. Also, you can have any number of slaves, but only one master fixture. So, if you like what you're seeing and need more, you can see that's no big deal.

Same thing with DMX as well.

Our Quartet consists of me on trumpet/flugelhorn; a guitar, upright bass and drums. We are using a Bose PAS Model 2 with two bass units. In small clubs we just run the guitar (through a Line 6 POD) and bass (via a David Gage Realist pickup). Outdoors and in larger venues I use a AMT Roam 1 Elite clip on wireless mic. We have not needed to mic the drummer (although we have a set of overhead mikes we could use if needed)

The Bose unit is easy to carry around/set up and fits in the back seat of my car. We always consider weight and setup/breakdown, that is why the LED's make so much sense.

Right now we can setup/breakdown in less that 30 minutes. We what to make sure adding lights will not increase this time substantially.

Well, you know what BOSE stands for:
Bring Other Sound Equipment. Ugh, wouldn't waste explosives on that stuff. Maybe let the dogs pee on it. Heck, if I'm feeling in the mood, I would do. Just hate the high levels of distortion, cheap parts and high over-pricing. I've also never seen any system be out of phase with itself before. But that's just technical engineer speak.

For the most part, you're going silent on the stage. And with those BOSE units behind you, you're getting that as your monitor as well. Thought about mybe getting in-ear monitors?

Onto lights:
Multiple choices. The Punch pros are light. You can get a tripod stand that goes up to 12-feet, be super light, and then put an o-clamp onto the Punch Pro. I'll test this with my Crank2 stands later and report back tomorrow to see if this works. Otherwise, get a full T-Stand. Throw the cross-bar onto the stand, put the light on the T-bar, tighten screws, and raise it up. Bring a few power cables, and a dedicated and MARKED DMX cable that can go up and down the full length of BOTH stands and hve slack and span the gap on the ground(or behind you) and you're good to go. Say, a 50-foot cable should suffice quite nicely. You could also use the bolts to attach it to the T-bar, which is all well and good, I just like to have stuff like that come clear off the rigging between events. I'd say 2 of you could set up the lights in 5 minutes, one on each stand. Depending on the size of the stands, you can get cases for them as well.

I'm guessing that with a little practice, you'll spend way more time looking for power outlets than setting up your lights. At the description of your rigging, 1 15amp circuit is more than sufficient for your entire gig. Figure out your "wiring methodology" and buy power cords that match. Get some reels to wind your cables up onto fast and it should go smooth.

I carry my stuff around in a truck. Quality first. The rest is secondary. Considering my console weighs 400 pounds in the case with cabling, I ain't putting that IN my car, much less a passenger seat. It's wider than my car, but has a couple inches to spare in the truck(side to side).

My color changers are all one channel DMX. They don't dim so 4 changers split on 2 channels = 2 DMX channels. The front spot on the banner is on another channel and we use the 4th channel only when we add the pins (all on a one channel dimmer). I wish the FC-400 was more like an FC-800 with 8 DMX channels (they don't exist AFAIK), that would open up a huge amount of flexibility for a band like mine.

The front changers are DMX, but they are not hooked up on the controller or even together - just on the slowest auto-fade from one color to the next through something like 20 preset colors. They'll do something like 16K colors, but they'd require something like 4 DMX channels just for themselves. Since they don't use wheels or gobos to change (they do 1-255 RGB dimming 3 separate lamps in each fixture for colors), the color change is very smooth and subtle. Not linking them together adds a little more depth to the coloring of us at the front of the stage. Amber on one side of our faces, blue on the other before they slowly fade to other colors, for an example.

Even though I play in some real 'interesting places' with sometimes pretty dodgy wiring, I have never popped a breaker anywhere with this setup. Since the big guns (the 900w changers out front) are never wide open on auto scroll, I'm sure that's why they never really draw full power. Good thing too, they'd be blinding if they were both turned full on. They scroll using 3 dichronic filters over 3 separate 300W lamps. If they're not using DMX to be controlled but doing it themselves, they put out less light (still plenty) but only do 20 colors instead of the full 16K they'll do if DMX'ed. I hope that makes sense - it does in my head.

The setup I'm using takes an additional 15 minutes to setup & tear down. Not bad considering my drummer is the dumbest guy you've ever seen and we rarely let him touch anything since he's broken more stuff than I can remember.

Oh yeah - I have not only 200A service in my 50 year old home, I have 120A in the garage on a separate feed. I probably have twice the power at home than half the places I play. Of course, I don't take my Lincoln Arc or MIG welders or 220v air compressors to gigs.

Cheers,
- JJ

quote:

Oh yeah - I have not only 200A service in my 50 year old home, I have 120A in the garage on a separate feed. I probably have twice the power at home than half the places I play. Of course, I don't take my Lincoln Arc or MIG welders or 220v air compressors to gigs.

Man, my house only has 120 amps. Sad how I can't even run my rig in my own house! Well, it's true, they don't make them like they used to.

So you're not taking your welders or air compressors to gigs? Come on, you can do one heck of show with those!!! No wonder you have 200 amps, you need it.

Maybe Jingles can help.

yup im here what you guys need?? lol

I don't think ADJ is going to come up with a DMX air compressor and various welding systems.

hmmm nope the only thing we have that is close to that is the accu fog. throws out smoke and is dmx controllable.