4 DMX output Operator 192

And Martin's cheapest board, the Freekie, has a MAP price of about $550 vs $250 of the 192 with less channel control as well... For the price of a Freekie, you can get a 192 and an Opto Branch/4 good for 8 outputs, 4 isolated banks. Seems to me like they are with the program already, 8>4 on the Freekie.

Welcome to the forums too.

I disagree. It's another piece of equipment to install, wire in, take up space, and take up outlets on the power conditioner. The cable to connect the two pieces can go bad as well whereas direct connection to the PCB minimizes that chance. On board is always better than wiring up two separate pieces.

It should only cost ADJ $25 or so at the factory to add in a DMX repeater and a second output on their units, tack on another $50 MAP and people WILL pay - I CERTAINLY would have!

It doesn't make for a very clean mobile set up having a separate unit to do the splitting either.

The fact is, adding a second DMX output on board is cheap, easy, and makes sense. Do it and the people will buy it.

That said, the MAP on an Operator 192 is actually $249.99 (there went that $50 savings) and although 48 more DMX channels can be controlled by the ADJ unit, 240 scenes is WAAAAAY less than a Freekie's 1200. Also, I'm still waiting for a STROBE button on an ADJ controller that will control a DMX strobe without the need for a separate cable (DMX FOG too for that matter). You forgot that, so tack on another $99.99 MAP for an S-4A strobe controller, plus the hassle of either a separate DMX cable to further clutter everything up, or about $500 for a DMX signal combiner (Yet another piece of gear) so that the Strobe "universe" and main "universe" can be linked together and run from a single line like the Freekie does.

Seriously, I never understood why the strobe buttons on ADJ controllers did not control DMX strobes.

The Scanner Macro's are a programming dream come true in the Freekie too. Man I wish ADJ could put something like that in one of their boards. I would do it the old fashioned way rather than pay the $$$ for something like that though.

Since the Operator 192 has a USB input, why not have a software program that you can "draw" out scanner light paths and then dump them into the controller, that would be SWEET! OK, now I'm just dreaming.

Also let's not forget that the DMX operator 192 is designed and intended as a starter DMX board. I know of no starter boards that have multiple outs of the same universe let alone a program to make your own custom pan and tilt shapes.
Well if you count software my dmx does this for around the same price and more but you still need a splitter.
Sincerely,

You are right about the MAP price on the 192, so I will edit that.

Programing a DMX strobe is just that... programing. The most complicated ones are 3 channels, 4 or 5 if you have an Atomic 3k with a color scroller... And if you are using 1200 scenes on a console that can only control 144 channels of DMX, that's impressive. Even 240 is still rather high for that many channels.

As for the splitter being extra gear, its extra gear I personally am never without for a number of reasons. The linked outputs on the console basically double or in the case of the Freekie, quadruple your chances of frying the DMX drive, something the splitter prevents.

At the cost of the Freekie's price, I would rather pony up a few hundred more and grab a Hog PC dongle which can do much more (unlimited channels, scenes, palettes, playbacks, cues, etc), is insanely more powerful (full effects engine), and is way more expandable (wings, touch screens, time code, midi, etc) then the Freekie ever can and/or will be. Same deal with a Compu Cue dongle or Emulation software. Personally, I prefer hardware because I am much faster on it, but if you are looking for bang for the buck, Compu Cue or Emulation is as good as it gets really. Add in a Midicon when you get some more cash and you will be way happier then a Freekie could ever do.

With these starter boards (which as jingles pointed out is what a DMX Operator 192 is), people have a hard enough time trying to turn things on and hook things up let alone get into an effects engine. Sounds simply like you want something that is over designed and has way more hardware but don't want to pay for it.

Well, I wish there were smaller DMX splitters I can drop in. I hate having to run DMX first to the middle of the back of the stage to hit up the foggers, then back to the stage left to another fogger, then up to a mover, across the stage to hit some Mega Bar 50's, then up to the mover on upstage right. I dislike the backtracking.

But, at the same time, I don't do any shows without the Opto Branch/4 that involve lights, so the point where I'm debating adding a second to help with some of those cable issues. Sometimes, a bit of gear is justified by more than what it costs. It's a great bit of gear.

I run a mobile sound production company with lighting. I can do neat and clean wiring no problem. I call it "making an effort". Since it's not practical or safe for my gear to stay on a truss for transport, I don't have much choice. With lighting configuration changing frequently, it further makes justifying permanently(for lack of a better term) attaching gear to a truss less practical.

If you just run your DMX cabling down the line, why is there such a problem with cable clutter? Buy or build suitable length cables.

I think what is being lost in the fray is the fact that this is being used in a Mobile DJ setup. Speed of set-up and teardown, neatness, and reliability are key factors. We only have so much space in our combo racks for gear which is why cabling mess is a concern. It is a headache (and sometimes impossible due to space constraints) to add a separate Splitter and separate Strobe Controller.

Even on my full lighting rig, which is essentially a mobile nightclub, I can't use all 192 (or 144 for the Freekie) channels. We need functionality that fits us. The Operator and Operator 192 are sooooo close, yet come up short to being the "perfect" mobile DJ light controller.

One thing we almost all share is having at least two trees of lights, on on either side of us. On my full rig, I also have a truss in the middle and behind me. No two venues are the same, so custom length cabling is out of the question. and running to one side, then all the way back around to the other is cumbersome, sloppy, and a waste of cable. For the cost of the swing-back cable, I installed 3 more isolated outputs on my board (and could actually do a 4th without any trouble if I wanted). You can't tell me this is a feature that ADJ couldn't do every bit as inexpensively. It's soooo cheap and solves one of our biggest headaches and annoyances.

I consider the Operator 192 to be an intermediate board (as well as the Freekie) A Chauvet Obey 3 or ADJ LED Operator are beginner DMX boards IMO. The 192's true functionality is lost on most beginners but those of us who know how to work it can make it do some amazing things. A 2nd or 3rd DMX output is something I consider an Intermediate feature and should be included even at the 192's price point.

Leave the Operator as a single output, and add a 2nd or 3rd out on the Operator 192 to further distinguish it as a more advanced board (which it is) and bump the price up another $50 to set it apart from the Operator further.

The Operator 192 is a fantastic board, which is why I'm using it, but there's still room for improvement.

... And add a tap-able DMX strobe button while you're at it.

Personally, I would consider something like a Magic 260, the Show Designer line, and the new Trio line to be intermediate. The add a lot of functionality but don't get very complex nor have higher functions like full effects engines, full tracking layouts, palette systems, etc.

I can show anyone how to run an Operator 192 in about 5 minutes. I am not saying they will be programing wizards, as that takes time, but they will know how to run it and program things. I can also show anyone how to run an Express line in 5 minutes and have programed more impressive shows on that then I have seen from a lot of different places. For example, I programed a show a few months ago on an Express 250 with 10 Opti Tri's. It was an 86 page script with about 100 cues in the show. Same deal a few weeks later, only this time on an Ion with 18 Tri's, 4 movers, and a lot more conventionals. 250 cues for a 92 page script. True functionality is only limited by the programer. I could have did that same 250 cue show on the Express 250, it just would have taken me longer to program and it would have come out the exact same show. I could have also done it on a Magic 260 but it would have taken me about a week to program.

I guess by your standards, the Road Hog which I work on a lot is horrible because it only has 4 DMX outs (each a different universe) for a $12,000 console. I guess the GrandMa 2 Lite which I have been using a lot lately is even worse with only 6 outputs for $57,000 (these can be linked or individuals). It seems like you are too stuck on a one-piece-does-all hardware solution and not grabbing a few things to make your life easier, like splitters. Who said you have to rack mount the splitter? And who said it needs to sit right next to the console? For example, I did a gig not to long ago at the Philly Art Museum. I had a Road Hog Full Boar for my console, 34 ColorBlast 12s with 6 different power supplies, 8 Coemar Par Lite LEDs, 4 Mac 700 Profiles, and 8 S4 Lekos for stage wash on two different dimmer packs. Now, setup was a pain because we had to do it in parts. So rather then confuse my guys on which output to plug what into, I sat a splitter next to the console and looped another one off of it for downstairs. This let them run a signal cable wherever they needed a cable and they didn't have to wait for other things to be in place. Could I have used 4, 3, or 2 different outputs right off the back of the console? Sure, but then everyone would have been confused as to what plugged in where, addresses for different things, and they would have had to have run way more cable then was needed. For theatre stuff, my splitters are always backstage as another example. Same deal with the larger rock shows as well.

I am not sure of your setup, however it seems like a splitter would make your life much easier. You can put it under the stage for example and not have 3 different cables going in different directions coming of the back of your console (that to me screams headache when trying to troubleshoot). When you aren't next to the stage and away from it on the other side of the room, again run a single cable to the stage and breakout vs 3. It also saves you the time, money, effort, and voided warranty caused by modding your console/s. Also, from your pictures, the outputs aren't isolated. Same DMX universe without a transformer between outputs on same PC board. That thing takes a hit, you fry the whole PC board.

Last, there is always room for improvement on everything. However, is it worth it? And is everyone willing to pay for it? Well, judging by the fact I have seen tons of DMX Operators, 192s, and Pro's but never a Martin Feekie, I say that answers the question.

In the Mobile DJ world, we live and die by all-in-one. We need as much quality and *usable functionality* in each piece as we can get. We don't have space in our combo racks for individual specialized pieces gear. We can't take chances with pieces failing. We don't have set-up and tear-down time available for hiding stuff "under the stage" if there even is a stage available. We don't have a team of roadies to set up and tear down for us. We have as little as 30 or 45 minutes to set up some times.

I'm thoroughly confused as to how you made the leap from anything I've said to me bagging on $50,000 professional lighting consoles. Come on now, are you really going to take a $12,000 light console to a wedding gig that's paying $600? Remember, MOBILE DEE JAY not professional touring light and sound company. Two entirely different ballgames which are NOTHING alike. You are trying to compare Baseball to Checkers.

That said, you are correct, a splitter would "make my life much easier". That's why I built one into my Operator 192 as you see in the pictures I linked to in my OP. What I'm displeased with is the fact that -> I <- had to do it when I believe that a 2nd or 3rd DMX out is something simple and inexpensive that ADJ should be putting on their intermediate boards (which I still include the Operator 192 in.) I say this partly because Martin includes a 2nd out even on their ENTRY level board - the Freekie - which is as comparable to an Operator 192 as you are going to get, and partly because it would sell. It is a genuine suggestion to ADJ from a working professional Mobile Jock and former Gear Salesman.

Having a multitude of experience with both ADJ and Martin controllers, I am saying there are some features of the Freekie that, added into an intermediate board such as the Operator 192, would make it a Game Changer if not a Game Ender for ADJ. They are so close to the perfect ** Mobile DJ ** Light controller, just a couple more add-ins and it's game over for any competition...

Let me just clarify though, ADJ will not be adding any thing to the dmx operator. Thanks.

I was just simply using your logic. If its so cheap and easy to add, how come everyone doesn't do it? Especially on consoles that cost more then a car. Even Martin's Maxxyz only has 4 universes on it even though it can go up to 32. I guess they should just put 32 ports on the back. Heck, Hog 2 guys use to run two consoles side by side back in the day.

I thought you might say something like that. I actually have done my fair share of DJ gigs where I have provided lighting. 4 movers, 2 strobes, hazer, and I will let you guess as to what I used for my console do to limited setup and tear down times. I also did this one gig in AC a few years ago, 4 DLED36 MH and 2 Opti 30 RGB's which I controlled with a Road Hog as well. I have even taken the Hog into bars for different gigs before. When you need it for much larger things, sometimes its just easier to use it for the simplest things just because I can program a whole show in a few minutes. Friends' wedding this summer that I am in and doing for free, my console is a Hog there too...

Rush jobs are also common with a lot of what I do. I have a gig coming up on the 19th and 20th for this dance concert. I have a whooping hour to load in and setup 4 Mac 700 Profiles, 10 Opti Tri's, and focus/gel the house lighting before they start rehearsing and I have to start programing. Oh, no roadies either, just me. I have done more then my fair share of stuff alone, stuff the needed to be done 5 minutes ago, stuff where I have had more guys then I know what to do with, stuff where I am sitting around for 10 hours with nothing to do, and everywhere in between. Nature of the beast. You picked the industry.

You are also wrong when you say every Martin console has a 2nd out. LightJockey 2 only has a DMX In and Out for example, not 2 outs. LightJockey only has one out. There are also plenty of other Martin consoles no longer made that have only one output. The Xciter you probably would have complained that the one output was 5 pin and not 3. Martin was very much like what Elation is today. Histories are remarkably similar.

And if you want all the stuff the Freekie has, why not just buy one? I don't go to the PM complaining about the console that I end up with after I already saw the pull-sheets and said that's fine. Also, AMDJ certainly wouldn't be wise to add all the stuff the Freekie has to the DMX Operator because then it would cost the same most likely and just be a clone while being called out on it most likely.

Nothing in my logic remotely insinuates that a console that would NEVER be used in the Mobile DJ industry is garbage regardless of how many outs it has or price levied on it. I swear, discussing this with you is like interviewing Sarah Palin.

Evidently you missed the part where I said, "The Operator 192 is a fantastic board, which is why I'm using it." Also, as I said before, I have experience with both meaning I have used both in a real-world, work setting as well as having sold both in a retail environment. I am intimate with the ins and outs of both controllers.

Everyone doesn't go multi-out on every universe on a console because in the world where a console requiring multiple universes resides, you don't have the need for compact all-in-one like a Mobile Jock needs. They are two entirely different industries which begets two entirely different sets of needs. We have no use for multiple universes, period. A single universe consisting of 512 channels of DMX will never realistically be fully utilized by a professional mobile jock.

Why don't I just buy a Freekie? Again, I have owned one - I loved it's functionality, but didn't like it's usability in the work environment for what I do. What I would love to have, and would drop the cash on in a heartbeat, would be a board with the functionality of a Freekie but with the real-world usability of an Operator 192.

I have absolutely no idea where you thought I said that every Martin board has multiple outs... I said, "Martin includes a 2nd out even on their ENTRY level board". Is the Freekie their entry level board? YES. Does it have 2 outputs? YES. Where in that statement did I say every Martin board has multiple outs and why do you keep trying to drag consoles into the discussion that I have never referenced within the confines of my original post?

You seem to have issues making distinctions in the subtleties of discussion, so I will end with this:

I gigged with my modded board tonight and utilized 3 out of the 4 outputs, It performed flawlessly and as I envisioned and further lowered my set-up and tear-down time as I had hoped. I am happy with what I have created and I still contend that ADJ should be putting multiple outs on some of their boards for the Mobile Jocks. Built-in Multi-outs are a godsend to Mobile Jocks weather ADJ agrees or not.

It would still be nice to have that strobe button on-board controlling my DMX strobe though...

Ok Tell you what, i've sent this thread to our Top R&D managers. They will look at it and discuss it. I might have an update for you I might not. I'm not sure. But the idea will be passed.
Sincerely,

quote:

I say this partly because Martin includes a 2nd out even on their ENTRY level board

Hmmm, looks like you you said that Martin has a second out, which simply isn't true. Case and point, LightJockey. Old 2518 controller comes to mind off the top of my head as well, only one 3 pin out. And as I pointed out, their range topper doesn't have second out's for each universe nor does it have enough ports built into it to max it out. Maybe Martin should learn from Elation since Elation's SD2 and SD3 both have more then one out per universe on a much cheaper console...

And how is it not any different logically speaking? I have done gigs where I needed more than 2048 channels of DMX, so I had to add a couple of DP8000's to a Full Boar or use a Hog 3 with more then one DP8000 (and those you can't safely run 2048 channels). Would it not have been easier for me too if HES just put 8 or 12 ports on the back of a Full Boar? How about Maxxyz guys who need all 32 ports or Ma guys who need all 64 universes? And those Hog 2 guys needing to run more then one console... You also seem to think that many universes equals only one port which is not true. I have used more then one universe before without coming anywhere near 2048 channels. Tying in house lights and house rigs to another universe makes things easier because I don't need a splitter sitting right next to the console when I have limited space. I have also done things where I have had more then 32 fixtures but been under 512 channels which means I need to use another universe. With LED stuff, it is very easy to do that now a days. Nothing says you have to use one universe because you aren't using 512 channels.

If you want functionality and useability, find another console then. That's what I do. I don't use a Vista for the same things I use an Ion for the same things I use a Hog and for the same things I use a Ma. If I had to buy one of my own though, it would be the Hog because of cost and functionality for the price as well as how fast I can do things on it. But I wouldn't go complaining to HES that I want hardware changes. I bought the console as is and have to live with it. If you want more of something, look elsewhere then. There are more then 2 consoles makers in the universe.

A splitter would have done the same thing you did to your console with added benefits and stability as well as ease of trouble shooting when a problem arises. You don't need to rack mount it and it lets you drop your lines in a place that would most likely look cleaner since you are a DJ and a focus point. 1 cable is less then 3 or 4 cables which simply put, will look cleaner any day of the week. Heck, you can even put the splitter up in a truss if you wanted, I have and many big tours in fact do. And once again, 8>4 or even 9>4 though I wouldn't recommend using the link out for anything but another splitter. Someone help you too if you get a power surge and fire that PC board or one of your fixture's DMX drive shorts out and sends a spike back down the line. That would be a very bad day for you and something a splitter would have prevented.

So, I've heard from one of my managers. They said that we will look into this for future consoles.
Sincerely,