Lighting with 4 scanners and 28 par cans

very awesome set up! welcome to the forums. i love the peformance scans s i have one. i would love to see some pics of the rig u just described. so you need to know how to split up the address for all the packs for the pars? you say u have 8 channels for the pars? and how many do u need for optimal cotrol of your looks for the pars? let me know. peace! jingles!

Thanks Jingles, I knew I could count on you for a reply! (I've been looking around for a long time trying to figure it out on my own).

The best I can do is a picture of the diagram since I've not set the truss up yet. You can also visit www.firehouseyouthministry.com and look under the photo sections for pics of what they currently have plus what they started out with before that as well. This is being setup for a full week long youth event that will be over the top.

I have 120 AMPs available for sound and lights. I would like to have 40 amps for the sound ( 2 - 20 amp breakers) so that would leave 80 amps for the light show.

I'm using a DMX Operator Pro for the lighting console and it has 8 dedicated Par faders plus the intelligent lighting all in the same. In the best case scenario, I would love to have control of each par can individually, and be able to set scenes, but I don't know if that's really possible. I have 5 dimmer packs available to use plus two T-4's that I could use on the rear par cans for automated play to the music and free up another dimmer pack if it helps.

What I'm thinking is that I basically have 4 colors of par cans that face the singers so I could control each color (4 seperate lights) with one channel a piece. The front 4 lights would be the same channel and the rear lights could be 4 channels or ???

I'm just trying to get a grasp on all of it.

give me a couple hours to think about this. lol. i have to go to work but i will get back to ya later tonight. also u may just have to use some channels on the intelligent side aswell as the 8 faders on the par side. i will go into more detail later. peace. jingles!

hey kevin do u have 4 or 6 channel packs? cause im thinking maybe set em up in twos and split em up in 4's to one pack and i think you should have enough packs to do this. let me know what u have. a link to the actual product will be helpful. im just tryin to make sure i completely understand this. so that way i don't go handing out bad advice! you know? peace! jingles!

Ok Jingles,

I've got 3 of these: DP-DMX20L

http://www.americandj.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1...t=Dimmer_Controllers

and 2 of these: DP-415

http://www.americandj.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1...t=Dimmer_Controllers

They are both 4 channel packs with 8 total plugs. The first three (DP-DMX20L) can handle 20 amps total or 600 watts / channel and the second 2 (DP-415) can handle 15A total / 5 Amp's per channel (600 watts).

I also have a stage setter 8 that I currently use.

ok i have to make this quick i got to get back to work but let me know if this seems like it might work. here is a pic.

each circle is 1 dimmer pack if u plug two cans into one channels each i think it will work and you will even be left with 2 channels left over per pack. i don't know if u will even need to use the par can side cause it only gives u eight unless u want to put ur main 8 pars on those channels. but the others you can just start the packs at the according address and you might be able to group them on 1 to 2 fix. buttons. understand? if not let me know where i lost ya and i will get back to ya a.s.a.p. after i get off work. peace! jingles!

Something else, I've also thought about putting the 4 scanners at the rear of the state instead of up front since the singers will be back from the front truss instead of under it. Thought it might get too hard to see through - any thoughts?

well something i like to do that looks cool only if you have enough coverage on the performers which i think you should be ok and a decent followspot is put 2 scanners on each side of he drum riser and space em out evenly to get a nice upflow of moving light in the background especially with the rotating gobos in the haze should look awesome. my two watts.

Great pics. So set the scanners to each side the drums. You think I should put the other two up front then?

I've also attached another pic of what I was thinking on the dimmer packs. I need to turn the front lights on with the backlights off. I was thinking that it would be 4 different colors grouped in each group but I think you are thinking to go 2 different colors in each group spread across the truss?

I think the simplest answer (if it works like I think) is to set the two (might add to more for head room) DP-DMX20L's DMX address to the same so that both packs react identically to the same commands. That will use only 4 chanels. The other 4 channels will be in the rear of the room and that will eat up all 8 par can faders so I can still have real time control over them with the faders anytime I want. The front 4 lights will only be on at 100% so I can program it as an intelligent fixture and use it as a scene....correct?

I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this stuff and wringing them out soon!

yeah you could put 1 on each side of the drummer and two up front on the floor.
so im not too sure what your asking me care to elaborate a ll more and also ur pic each ectangle is one dimmer pack total? let me know. peace! jingles!

When I set everything up, Can I set the par cans dimmer packs to the same DMX address to have each pack respond the same? i.e. Channel 1 is channel 1 on all the packs so all lights on channel 1 turn on/off/dim with the input from the lighting desk? That's the first 4 channels (1-4)

The dimmer pack controling the rear 8 par cans will be set to a different address so that will be the next 4 channels (5-8).

The dimmer pack for the front 4 lights I'll program as an intelligent light with each function being a "slider" of that intelligent light. However, I will use those lights just for the public speakers so I can set them before the show and save them as a scene. That would give me complete control of the par cans and still leave the "intelligent" side of the controller for the scanners, etc..

The rectangles that I have drawn around each group of par cans would be the dimmer pack. Two par cans plugged into each channel.

oh yeah you can do that put it is always best to have individual control of all pars i have been told. that sounds fine. sounds good let me know how it works out. peace jingles.

we'll do and I'll post some pics soon!

Long Post - I am in an informative mood. I like helping other ministries.

You can use the same rock and roll style lighting for contemporary churches.

Lots of cool back light.

Front light stays simple. Yeah 4 colors is cool but I can live with Red, White, and Blue as my front light. Do a 4 color wash with your back cans along with your scanners.

You will be amazed at the different looks this plot will allow you to do. We use almost the same plot at my venue. With the exception that we use 64's and Trackspots. All my rock shows have the same concept. Heavy back light for audience eye candy. Simple front light to see the performers faces. The moving lights mostly do back specials on performers with different color combinations with the pars. I'll program crowd sweeps and such but mostly they are focused on performers, the drummer, or the back wall with a cool gobo combination.

I gave you the gel layout. Don't buy those 4 color sampler gel packs. The colors are usually over saturated and will burn fast. The gel colors I picked out aren't that saturated, meaning they will let a lot more light out of the can, especially if you are using 300 watt lamps.

Place 2 of your DP DMX 20L's for your back light. One pack will do the inner cans, the other the outer. The remaining three packs will control your front light on independent channels.

All the back lights point upstage. There is no drum lighting - you can take the outer yellow cans and point them at the drummer. Otherwise, my suggestion is to buy one LED 64 and put it at the center of your upstage truss shooting down at the drummer.

For the longest time I had my back pars and moving lights on the same DMX operator (not the pro). When I wasn't running lights, the venue a volunteer would make everything happen. You want the volunteer to be able to hit a scene button and be guaranteed a good look out of the back lights. We would organize banks of look "concepts" for example.

Bank 1 hard/fast looks. Intels Upstage on lead singer. - Pars and intels doing nice color combinations. (red pars, yellow intels; green& blue pars, purple intels)

Bank 2 moderate hard/intermediate looks. Intels on back wall. Same thing again. Cool color and par combinations. Hard contrasting color combinations

Bank 3 Slow/reflective/emo looks. Dark color combinations, pretty looking breakups from the intels.

I usually do 4 scenes with the colors and gobos the same with different par combinations. If I got bored with my intel looks I would select the scanners and change color/gobo/add strobing on the fly.

A typical song would go something like this:
~Verse (bank 1 keep it static maybe a few changes, but keeping it simple)
~Chorus (bank 3, if its an upbeat song, I will flash between 4 adjacent scenes on beat or every other beat
~Verse (bank 1)
~Chorus (bank 3 again)
~Bridge (bank 4, massive look change)
~chorus (bank 3)
~closing/tag (bank 5, color scrolls, etc)

It will take a lot of programming. At one time I had 13 banks. I switched the venue over to light jockey for the moving lights but we still use the dmx operator for the pars as we do not have a real conventional console.

Otherwise my suggestion is to get a separate board for your pars. You are going to want to have separate faders and bump buttons for your pars.

Be gentle with my drawing abilities. I don't have photoshop. Power point works well.

This is what my show looks like with the same plot. Only difference is the drum lights.

Super simple 16 cans for 4 color back light with moving lights doing "clever" things.

Awesome setup, so how did you do the front lighting so everyone isn't sillohetted from the lights? We are looking at moving the truss down to the floor in front of the stage in order to provide the light for the front part of the stage where the speaker and some dramas/dancers will be.

Hey, here's some pics from the week's service with the lights. Some changes from the previous setup stuff. Everything worked well and it was pretty straight forward to figure out when I got into it in practice.

Pics are all located here:

http://www.bootcamprevival.com/Pictures.htm

cool man. glad to hear everything worked out well. what were the heads i saw in the background? glad to hear from ya. peace! jingles.

quote:

Originally posted by jingles:
cool man. glad to hear everything worked out well. what were the heads i saw in the background? glad to hear from ya. peace! jingles.

Heads in the background? Not for sure what you are asking?

The equipment was all of the par 56 / 46 cans 12 56 and 4 46's on back, 8 56's in the front and 4 46's in the front as well. Mirror ball suspended in the center with two Accuspot 300's on each side at the front. Kept them up there instead of the back for hitting the crowd and to create a backdrop for the preaching time and different activities. Here's a few of my favorite pics. The pics that are light were the ones with a flash. The really cool pics were taken without a flash.

oh my bad i forgot u were using accu spot 300's. looks really cool. too bad i couldn't have played around with that rig. lol! peace! jingles.
p.s. did u use any performance scans?

quote:

Originally posted by jingles:
oh my bad i forgot u were using accu spot 300's. looks really cool. too bad i couldn't have played around with that rig. lol! peace! jingles.
p.s. did u use any performance scans?

Didn't get to use any performance scans just the two Accuspots. They are really neat lights. I'm going to rework some stuff and try to move some things around.

One question, I'm getting some buzzing in the audio when I run the dimmers on the par cans at partial settings and when switching scenes. Any ideas on how to stop that?

are ur lights plugged into the same breaker as sound? if so try and seperate them. other then that im not really sure what could cause that. im only lights no sound exp. sorry. jingles!

quote:

Originally posted by jingles:
are ur lights plugged into the same breaker as sound? if so try and seperate them. other then that im not really sure what could cause that. im only lights no sound exp. sorry. jingles!

From the main breaker, there's a 100amp single cable that runs to a second panel box where there are 7 - 20 amp breakers. Everything is plugged into seperate breakers at that box.

sorry but that was my only idea. jingles.

Yes, you can put dimmer packs in daisy chain on the same DMX address and they will all do the same thing. So, in effect, you could have 4 4 channel dimmer packs, and two pairs with the same dmx address, and it will work just fine. 8 packs 4 on one channel, 4 on the next, so on and so on... Gotta love DMX. I have the operator pro too. I have only used the par side of it once. Now I have purchased 2 64B led pars, and now I am going to abandon regular old style pars altogether. I will probably sell the operator pro and purchase the Magic. It handles 24 DMX fixtures (no dimmer packs). I don't plan to do anything but intels from here on out, so I need more intel channels. Originally, I planned to buy regular par cans and dimmers, then came the LED pars. BTW, the 64b LED PARS are really cool (literally). Enough rambling. Cheers!!

BTW, sweet setup! Old style pars do look great. They just use so much power. Buzzing... they need to be on separate circuits altogether, if not on a different box. That is definately an issue with dimmer packs. Also make sure that all the outlets are wired correctly. Get one of those testers from the hardware store that has 3 lights on the front of it. Plug it in to all the outlets. If one is reverse polarity, it will cause all kinds of problems. Another thing as a last ditch is to isolate the ground on the equipment (ground lift) that is humming. Good luck. Go to all intels, and you'll never have a buzz.

quote:

Originally posted by cadconversions:
Awesome setup, so how did you do the front lighting so everyone isn't sillohetted from the lights? We are looking at moving the truss down to the floor in front of the stage in order to provide the light for the front part of the stage where the speaker and some dramas/dancers will be.

Our front light consisted of a combination of pars and lekos at a 60ish degree angle 25ish feet from the stage 15 feet in the air, this gave the lights enough angle to wash the stage and not foul on the back wall....

If you are having problems washing the stage from your downstage truss position, take a few of those pars and hang them on the vertical truss sections and do some side lighting for your downstage area.

Just for giggles, try hanging a black drop off your back truss to hide that wall. If you get bored you can make a cool sign with your canps logo and hang it in front of the back drop - this will give your stage a more "finished" appearance.

You maybe able to go to an army/navy surplus store and find some of that camouflage netting that is used to hide jeeps and other military stuff, that would be a great backdrop, light that stuff up with some white uplights and call it a day!

One more thing.... If you don't have the money to purchase more big pars and dimming to full up that truss then 8 chrome par 38 cans with 90 watt lamps, gel them green (for your camp theme) and spread them out along your back truss pointed downstage. This will complete the look. The 8 $13 cans can be ran off of one of your dimmer channel. You have all that bare truss, the "look" of chrome par cans gelled the camp theme colors looks good, even if they aren't providing a lot of light.

I know all this comes a little late, but it will be fun to try next year.

quote:

Originally posted by wthford:
BTW, sweet setup! Old style pars do look great. They just use so much power. Buzzing... they need to be on separate circuits altogether, if not on a different box. That is definately an issue with dimmer packs. Also make sure that all the outlets are wired correctly. Get one of those testers from the hardware store that has 3 lights on the front of it. Plug it in to all the outlets. If one is reverse polarity, it will cause all kinds of problems. Another thing as a last ditch is to isolate the ground on the equipment (ground lift) that is humming. Good luck. Go to all intels, and you'll never have a buzz.

Intels still can produce a hum, Trackspots have on board dimming for the low voltage halogen lamp - I've made PA systems buzz with the dimmer, I get around that by (obviously) not dimming the lamp, at full the hum stops.

Par cans do suck up the power, remember you may have 16 par cans behind the band but you don't have to have them on all at once, most of the time I don't have more than 2 colors on at once. I can load 8 par cans with 600 watt ray kits for back lights on one 20 amp circuit, I just have to remember to not have more than 4 cans on at once. When you are doing a 4 color back light wash it looks blah to have all cans one at once (though doing an "all flash" is always fun).

This particular setup used 16 cans (500 and 600 watt cans) on 2 20 amp circuits. Using a DMX operator I would make scenes that featured scenes like:
>4 yellows
>4 reds, 4 blues
>2 reds, 2 greens, 4 blues

All my scenes never had more than 8 cans on at once. (note I did have 4 more pars on the drums on its own circuit). Since the DMX operator doesn't have any flash buttons, I was able to keep the lights rockin during fast songs without the danger of tripping breakers buy just pressing the scene buttons. Using a simple "playback" controller like the DMX operator keeps people from doing the proverbial "turn all the sliders up" maneuver to put some light on stage. The volunteers know to only play with the bank and scene buttons to make the light show work.

Great ideas, the church is updating the stage for the new year and I'll be sure to incooperate some of the ideas. The front of the stage is the darkest area that we have a problem with. We will have to do something for sure but a spot light from the very back is taking care of it right now.

So, Tucker - what gel colors or codes do you suggest? Did I miss your post??? You're making some good comments - just want to ensure I understand your points.

Thanks,
Terry

quote:

Originally posted by tuckersound:

I gave you the gel layout. Don't buy those 4 color sampler gel packs. The colors are usually over saturated and will burn fast. The gel colors I picked out aren't that saturated, meaning they will let a lot more light out of the can, especially if you are using 300 watt lamps.

For Rock and Roll Back Light I use:
R026 "light red"
L116 "medium blue green"
R015 "deep straw"
R080 "primary blue"
R039 "Exotic Sangria" - a good hot pink alternative to the blue green



I like using a teal in my plots because it gives me 2 warm and 2 cool back light colors, I've used pink in place of the teal, the pink in fact goes with all the colors (where the teal doesn't look good with red).

You will be happier with these colors than the 4 color sample packs. Like I said before, these colors aren't hugely saturated. There are darker blues and reds but you won't get as much punch out of the light..... Lee 119 "dark blue" lets 3% of the light come through the gel, R80 "primary blue" lets 10% of the light come through the gel - that is three times the amount of light!!!
If you really want to get fancy, L 137 "special lavender" is a great alternative to open white pars for front or back light especially on musicians. There are other schools of thought when it comes to front lighting colors.... Light ambers and pinks....

For church we don't use anything, our cameras like operating at 32k (no color white) so we don't use a lot of color for front light, when we do, we keep it kind of pale - if that makes any sense.

Pick up a Rosco and a Lee gel sample book and have a gel picking out party.....