X-Move Dissapointment

This has been discussed/dissed before recently.

What was the application for your lights? Aiming? I am getting the impression these aren't intended for an aimed application, but rather DJ/Disco movement over the dance floor.

I can understand your position. Lights are hard to test/eval, especially if you don't have a lot of knowledge about lighting in general. It sounds like you're above that step and have knowledge, just the typical "not sure all the poop on certain fixtures".

I say to those who also experience this, speak up. Support will be listening and I'm sure they may be addressing this issue.

They are being used for stage lighting and to add excitement in the room. Spinning and sweeping the room is ok but I need them to be able to hold their positions for more controlled sequences on the main stage with more complicated light shows.

I have found a bit of a solution in that if you write sequences that do stage scanning and don't move all around the room the lights will generally stay in position. You just have to be careful not to switch to any of the effects programs that are preprogrammed in the lights and basically don't program them to do any really aggressive movements.

That kinda sucks though because the light show can get a bit repeditive. I am still experimenting with them to see how much i can move them around without them losing their position.

While your idea seems a step in the right direction towards resolving and addressing your concerns, something tells me that it's more of a compensation for something wonky in the fixture.

Jingles had said that the movement is 8-bit as opposed to 16 bit. OK, I can see that this might also be due to less fine motors and therefore less overall accuracy. Even so, I would think that even with 8-bit control, you'd still should be able to nail the marks and be close enough within reasonable margin to make it work. Going back to what Jingles said, I would think if I programmed in MyDMX or even a DMX controller "go to these values", then as long as I don't move that fixture physically, I should be pretty close to being "spot on", ahem.

But two people quite clearly talk about these fixtures drifting. I'm just not one to want to compromise to adjust myself to how a fixture works. If it doesn't work how I want, then out it goes. I've either bought a defective fixture(could be opinion) or the wrong fixture for the task.

I think this is an issue support needs to look into. Maybe email or call them up to describe the situation in further detail or post up here for that matter. I would say if they can replicate it, then that's the first step towards getting this issue addressed.

It is indeed a work-around issue and is still a dissapointment because if i only wanted no drastic movements and to aim them only at the stage i could have got the x-scan mirrored lights and saved 200 bucks per fixture. But it's either that or just have all the fixtures sweeping the entire room all the time. I am not one for out of control fixtures. I believe that a really impressive light show is one that is well thought out and programmed. That's why its called intelligent lighting.

The Martin 575 hid light has a built in circuitry that will automatically return the fixture to the correct position if it gets knocked out of alignment due to "agressive" sweeping movements. This is the kind of circuitry that needs to be added to the x-move.

DJ James
http://www.musicvideojock.com

I can certainly understand your frustration and can also see your point of view.

Getting to the issue of a self-correctiong circuit, while I'm not sure how much software this entails, let's look at the bottom line, you're comparing a Martin fixture to an ADJ fixture. Not exactly an "apples to apples" type comparison.

As far as your statement about "that's why it is called intelligent lighting", I am certainly in total agreement with that sort of statement especially how your supported it with your previous wordings. As I said, I can't agree more. My Chauvet Q-Spot 150s are, while do have some quirks that thankfully don't show when using MyDMX, are, excuse the term, spot on when it comes to them going to where I need them when I need them there.

I guess for a first shot at a moving yoke LED fixture designed for DJ's, I suppose this is a good first generation fixture. But, I'm not a DJ, I'm a sound production company. I will conceded that my strengths are in audio, not lighting, but I have ideas for lighting.

In my opinion, it sounds like the X-Move isn't a fixture I should consider. Like you, I would want better movement control. So, I think at this time, I should just sit and wait and watch what ADJ is going to come out with in the future.

Most DJ's don't need such accuracy and control, they just need something flipping around the room and shining lights around. That's not to say they don't want some degree of control, but rather they don't need "pin point control".

If I want "out of control fixtures", I can go with various high-tech effects. That "out of control" status is a feature I am leveraging for the effect I am going for. That's why I have things like the Mystic, Sunray III, Double Twist Trilogy, Vertigo and others in my inventory. Gives me the movement I need without me having to worry about direction or control, let the sound active deal with it for me(except the Sunray III with it's 6rpm rotation).

There is a proper place for all kinds of lights in all kinds of rigs.

If you're using a specific value(s) in DMX for the X-Move and it isn't hitting those more or less right on(remember, 8-bit control, gotta give up a little accuracy), then something ain't right. I'm not here to bash ADJ, they know my high regards for their company and product.

As I said, I am going to wait to see what the future holds. I'm out of money anyways, no reason to buy anything!

DJ james, I am gonna have our guys run a series of test on these tommorrow or when they have them set up to see if they can replicate your issue. f you cna record a video a post it to you tube that would be cool but if not it's ok. i will have the product specialist check this out aswell. So ill try to find some answers for you. Also the feature you are referring to is pan and tilt correction these are not a feature on the x moves. Only on our higher end models of moving heads will you find this feature.
Sincerely,

Please tell me what controller you are using. Thanks. Our guys here want to know.

See, I told you. ADJ Support would definately want to check this out. No slackers here. This is one of many reasons why I'm sticking with ADJ products.

Not to slam the competition, but C****t seemed to think their products are perfect and without error and probably that the universe revolves around them. Well, I could list a bad design on one fixture, and some stupidity on another fixture of theirs and TWO design flaws on another fixture of theirs(and these are the ones that I own). Fortunately, their Par36's are OK, but I like my ADJ one better!

I'd say at this point, keep offering up useful information to be handed over to support and otherwise lets wait and see what Support has to offer for X-move users.

I LOVE old-school tactics. Honestly, it's the only way things really work best. Thank goodness ADJ understands this. You'll find the better companies do. And for a company making products in these price brackets to be doing this, it's just an unepxected but much welcomed exception to the common rules these days.

DJ James1; I believe I was the other person on the forum who also found out the X-Move fixtures would not return to their DMX positions after running extreme positions. Your observation is exactly the same as mine. I am not expecting pin point accuracy, but having a DMX set position on the wall return back to the ceiling is not acceptable. I can post a Video of the effect if ADJ wishes.

Wow, that's really not acceptable. You aimed it at the wall and it hit the ceiling type example. That's just not good.

It seems Support is working on this issue. But I think posting a video might not be a bad idea. Somewhere they can download it so it doesn't have to be on YouTube or some stuff like that.

I know I would like to see a video as I'm sure our support people aswell. Also i NEED to know which controller you two are using with these lights please? One of my bosses wants to know. ok? please let us know ASAP.
Sincerely,

Sorry it is taking me so long to post the video, I wanted to also show the effect using my ADJ MYDMX software/USB. The Club uses a universal 192 channel 16 scanner DMX controller like the Elation DMX operator, I'll get the exact brand and model for you.

Take your time. A well done video that properly highlights what your complaint is will only serve to better help ADJ Support to check into this problem more thoroughly and probably help many of other clients as well.

It's a win-win situation.

I setup two semi-pro video camera's aimed at the X-Moves and walls of the club yesterday afternoon. I then programmed the controller and observed the X-Moves for 1 hour as well as let the chases run. I did see a little DMX position variation, but very minor. The conditions are different however. The club was at a cool (68) temperature, no pounding music and absence of fog. Tonight should be a busy, noisy, foggy night and I've re-programmed the system to point the X-Moves to the wall periodically. I will video/post tomorrow the result.

Me and the Rest of the staff look forward to it.
Thanks.
Sincerely,

I've tried these fixtures on multiple controllers...compulive.....magic 260 and operator pro..and no wmatter what...once u run a wild scene for a long enough period they will always get outa postionbut i have only found that its the tilt more then the pan...the pan might be off by a couple of steps...but the tilt will be a way off. Hopefully for the x-move 2 they will fix it...cant really see them doin a recall on all x-moves just for this issue. so hopefully some of this info finds its way to the R&D dept...hint hint nudge nudge...50 watt ledd and rotating gobos and maybe an actual red color insted of off shades of the mains.

When I arrived at the club the DJ was already running the show, fog and music. The X-Moves were already not following their DMX position to point to the club walls. I then connected the MYDMX usb and my laptop (instead of the Elation 192 channel controller) with the same settings (scene) I programmed the previous night and found the X-MOVE to be off their position the same as the hardware controller (same DMX values). Pointing to a wall approx 30 feet away, both the X-Move were almost 6 feet lower (now pointing onto the club floor partly). Using the MYDMX software, I paused the scene and reentered the pan/tilt values to repoint them to the wall. Tilt was off by 10 and 5 on each unit although this DMX value may not mean much since positions of the lights are different on the truss, what was interesting that for 3 hours the X-MOVE's tracked fine with the new settings until I left.

I should note that part of the programming includes sound activation and pre-programmed moves, they are mounted upside down on a truss about 20' in the air and about 6 feet apart. Nothing can touch them during the show and I am not able to cycle power obviously.

I can post the video, but it doesn't really show much effect except they look great running (especially in the fog) and the crowd was great.

It really seems like they simply do not reset to a home position correctly between patterns or extreme positions over a rather short period of time. Tilt more than pan seems to be an issue, and they should not be mounted close together even during preprogrammed moves to visually look better.

This is all I can offer at this time. My advise is to use these lights with DMX to control color, strobe, pattern and modest movement as part of a larger show. Use Spots for the Disco ball and wall LED arrays to light up any reflective walls instead. The X-SCAN units are great, highly recommend them and plan on getting two more to fill in.

-Mark

Sorry I have not been able to post back in some time but have been working a lot of shifts lately.

Jingles, you wanted to know what controller I am using. It is Martin Light Jockey 2. As far as a video on youtube, I will try and see if i have time to make one.

Another issue has also cropped up with these lights. A few of the units will continue to move but the LED cuts off for several hours and then for an unknown reason starts working again. Any ideas on this??

After about 400 or so hours, three of the four X-fixtures I have purchased have LED's that fail to light. The Pan/Tilt and DMX control seem perfectly functional and the menu system perfect. I have reset each unit and verified the LED is not turned off. I am returning both X-Scan and one X-Move for repair. Has anyone else had this issue?

I have to ask. Well, I don't have to, it's not like there's a gun to my head or anything like that.

Just some refresher, or maybe it's new information:

Is this an install or mobile application?

If mobile, how are you transporting these things? Do you have Arriba cases? Maybe hard or plastic cases? Retail box?

What type of vehicle are these transported in and do you tie-down/secure your load? Is this a truck? Van? Trailer? What else is going in there?

The mechanical problems suggest to me rough handling, especially during transport. While not conclusive, it's what I'm working off of. Please forgive me. I'm not accusing you of beating the crap out of your gear, just relaying what I've seen in past experiences.

The LED's crapping out sound like an electrical problem or bad batches. Are the serial numbers close? But this could also be a symptom of bad handling. I had a fixture's motor fail due to the fixture being dropped by my former crew, who in turn failed to tell me this light fell and may have been damaged, so at my next event, which I needed it, I looked like an idiot. Fortunately, I swapped it out(the damaged Double Twist) for my Vertigo. it's not like the client even gave a crap about my lighting, so I could have gotten away with less.

400 hours is a LOT of time for an incadescent bulb in that environment. For an LED, it's nothing.

I did have a compact floruescent fail on me after 20 minutes. The rest of the bulbs in the box worked just fine. Crap happens. But you're having too much crap in a short period of time. Something else is going on.

Any power failures? Brown-outs? Are you doing anything to protect the current going to the lights in some manner, even if it means using a "whole house" type surge supressor that installs by an electrician at the access panel?

They were installed new from the box onto a truss at a local club and never physically touched except to adjust their initial position. Needless to say, the lights were never abused or hit or exposed to weather. They were never dropped or handled roughly at all and the club temperature has been cool (it's winter here). 24 other DMX controlled fixtures (Majority LED based) are also in use with zero issues.

The two x-scan unit serial numbers are close, different by about 81.

Power wise, all the fixtures are protected by multiple distributed surge protection power strips on the truss and all the lights are physically powered off (via circuit breaker) until used; from 9:30pm to 2am four days a week.

I should note, the x-move failed about 3 weeks ago but was installed nearly one month before we received the two x-scan units. The two x-scan failed one week apart and about 3 and 4 weeks after the x-scan. So they all had roughly the same hours clocked, around 400 to 420, even thou they failed at different times.

I hope this answers your questions.

Well, that's helpful.

In my opinion, a serial number difference of less than 100 is pretty much "same batch". With this product I used to carry, they were made in small runs of often less than 100 at a time.

I'd have to agree with what you're saying. Right from the box and onto a truss, so chances are that while something COULD have happened, I'm gonna assume that really nothing happened(like, dropping a fixture or something stupid like that).

Now, usually, poor shipping can be identified by carton damage. I have had some extreme damage. When I bought my KV2 Audio gear, one EPack2500 had OBVIOUSLY been dropped and handled poorly, and I made them take care of that. It was defective as a result of the damage. But since you haven't mentioned carton damage, I'm going to rule out careless handling in transit, but doesn't mean that things didn't happen either.

How many circuits? Just the 1? Is it a 15 or a 20? I'm sure you're not running these DMX fixtures by hanging them off of dimmer packs. That's a BIG no-no! But I'm going to assume that's not the problem either.

Does the club allow smoking? It's horrible on gear, not to mention lungs. Thank goodness out here in California, smoking is getting banned in more and more places. I hate working on gear owned by smokers. It's disgusting and gummy and gunked up. That tarry crap in the smoke gets into the gear and becomes a magnet for fine dirt and dust particles. I would go on about other things I've seen smoking kill, but you can get the point. It ain't just bad for biological organisms.

So, we're down to quality control issues, would you agree? I'm reading from you small differences in SN's. That points me to a bad batch of components, or bad batches of different components, or even a production run flaw that was corrected later on.

Now, commenting on your on/off, I do things this way. After power is established, I like to let things sit for a few minutes before diving into it. But that's not a big deal. I just like things to warm up. however, going from cold truck to reasonably warm room, it's a safety thing as well, letting moisture evaporate off and condensation drip out. But really, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing.

I think it's some issue regarding bad component batches. Call up support, get an RMA number and ship your stuff to them. It's under warranty, they'll send it back as quick as they can. Good guys over in service. I just hope you don't get repeat problems. ALSO, DO log your serian numbers before you send stuff off. This protects you.

I have had the same problem with several (5 out of 8) x-moves installed at my club. They all worked great for about a month then the led's started cutting out. Funny thing is that after the power was turned back on the next morning, they worked as long as they were not moving. I also have noticed that when i use some of my x-moves to follow a preprogrammed pattern they do not stop lighting. But when using the built in program's and effects, that is when the fixtures stop lighting. They still move but the led goes out. However when they get switched back on the next day and are set to not move but stay in the same static position they stay lighted.

This leads me to believe that the built in movement effects are too hard on the unit causing the led to stop working and to jolt them out of home position. I can only suggest that you never allow your x-moves to operate using the built in patterns. Always program the lights with your own dmx chase patterns and make sure that you do not program any quick movements or movements that cause the fixture to get anywhere near the outer limits of its positioning. Simple slow movement that returns to its original point at the end of the sequence works best.

I think that should be a really good comparisong.

You've noted under cool and controlled conditions, they drift. It will be interesting what you observe in the real world.

I'm sure support has been anxiously await your latest discoveries and video.

(I'm not support, but I'm interested in the results)

As of last weekend, all two x-scan and two x-move units I purchased failed and about the same number of hours; 400's. I am afraid they are past warrantee and I'm returning them at the mercy of ADJ. Of 6 ADJ fixtures I purchased the last few months, 5 have failed (one tri-beam fails master/slave and sound). 22 other DMX fixtures continue to work perfectly at the venue. I am holding off purchasing more of the X-scan units until ADJ can identify and fix the problem.

I did not notice any of the X lights work when in a static position upon power up, they simply go through their startup pattern then stay dark.

I do run DMX patterns through the units, but some of these commands perform their pre-programmed moves. I would not want to keep fixtures that can be damaged simply running factory patterns, if this is the problem.

Wow, that's quite a bit of damage going on there. I read back a bit to see if you posted before, and you did, and so I know yours is an install situation, not mobile. The things that should be in your favor is that these aren't moved, so transport isn't the issue.

Remind me if this has been gone over:
Are you using any sort of power filtering such as surge suppression to prevent nasty stuff from happening to your fixtures? With so many so close together, I'm thinking it's got to be a power issue.

At my parent's house, they once experienced a bit spike in power. I forget all it zapped, but I do recall it was the aging 27" stereo console TV, as well as the dishwasher. I think the installed microwave also took a hit. All items damaged were hooked directly up to AC, as in: no power strips or surge suppressors. Many other things hooked up this way rode it out: washer and drier, Air conditioning, lights, the computers in the house.

As far as what you're doing, you're about as safe as can be since your situation is not mobile, so your fixtures see the least amount of wear and tear outside of "just normal use". There has to be more going on at your location. Too many fails in too short of a time.

Thanks Chris for your post. I need to stress this occurred over 5 week period after about 3 months of use. It was odd that when each fixture approached about 450 hours, they failed. The first to fail was a X-Move. About 3 weeks later a X-Scan failed. About 1 week later another X-Scan, than 1 weeks after that the other X-Move failed. Oddly, I was expecting the last X-Move to fail at the club last Friday, and sure enough it did while I was watching. The time of purchase of each fixture roughly fits the 3-month life span I am observing.

The electrical distribution is simple; two circuits running a T-shape truss. One branch is used for a 16 channel on/off controller we use to operate the disco ball spots (3), one halogen wall flower effect, a UV light and a confetti machine for new years. A Martin Acrobat is also on this branch. The other branch is on surge protectors and are all LED fixtures from ADJ and Chauvet, very low total power. (the owners wanted to go 'green' as much as possible).

These two circuits are only turned on when running the show. Again, this is a fixed installation, not mobile. The club does have smoke and a fog machine. The X-Scan and X-Move originally replaced 10 Martin 812 scanners in the club used over the last 10 years which took considerably more power.

I will post what ADJ service says about the issues with these two fixtures.

So, you're running right off the breaker to outlets and distro, without any mention of any sort of circuit protection.

Have the owner consider install a surge protector that will cover the whole panel. They aren't costly, but requires a qualified electrician to install. It's GREEN too.

Your not alone on this, i've started to have probs with my x-moves, already sent back 2 one for half the led cluster gave out so out put dropped half and 2ndly one gave out completely. and already another one is having probs with the color wheel...its gettin stuck between colors now, i removed the housing and noticed that it was very difficult to turn by hand even. I'm sorry to say that i'm starting to lose faith in these fixtures. concept has been great, but execution of it has been poor.

American DJ repaired the two x-move and x-scan fixtures quickly, and sent them back covered under warrantee. Thank you American DJ service, which was very good. I know they replaced the led elements from the repair receipt but I hope they have identified the issues (LED heat?) so this does not happen again in a couple of months. I have installed 3 of the 4 fixtures so far and they work great, however, I turned them on sound activation and Master/slave modes. The positioning issue with the x-move isn't a worry, not using them under DMX to point to the walls - used laser's now instead! The club is up to 29 fixtures, looks good. Thanks again ADJ service.

One of the X-Scan and one of the X-Move LED's have failed again within 2 weeks of each other and have been returned to ADJ for service. Same issue, they seem to just have burned the LED's out but mechanically still operate fine. This time they lasted about 7 months since the last repair. I expect the other two units should fail soon since they all have the exact same usage; 4X a week from 9:30 to 2am.I hear there is a new X-Move version that is more powerfull, wondering if it fixes this issue? Perhaps these units are better suited for mobile occasional use conditions.

New x moves will be a better product.
Sincerely,

Just reading this topic, have already posted a seperate topic, so sorry this is a double post.

I purchased 4 X-scans in January 2009, between then and now I've had 3 fail (LED just goes out and won't come back on). the 3rd to fail is actually a replacement for the 1st to fail so is not as long serving as the others. I only use them 2 nights a week for approx 5 hours a time, so in a year would clock upto 500 hours.

What I want to know, is have ADJ rectified this fault in the new X scan plus? are ADJ going to do a recall on the x scan for the plus model if this is the case? I mean they rate them at something like 40000 hours, and they do 400-500. They will be out of warranty in jan, so am I supposed to spend £1000 on a set of plus models when they fail.

Would be right of them to do so. I have not heard of a recall but for the price of these units, they need to make good and replace the old x-moves. I have sent a request to support for this very thing and we will see how they respond.

DJ James

Has this problem been resolved with the new x move les PLUS so hat there are no issues in the light returning to it original posiiton.

So far i have not heard anything about the issue you described regarding the Plus's.
Sincerely,