Using Berhinger fcb1010 w/ Magic 260

The FBC1010 has 10 buttons, and 2 pedals. Assuming you can assign values to the pedals, you should at minimum get 10 scenes readily accessible.

I don't know if this works in banks, where there is a bank incriment pedal switch to bump you up a bank to get 10 new triggers.

I would find it hard to accept that this unit only allows 10 total triggers. Then again, it very well could.

Hello Hobson, I also have a Magic 260 controller and was Thinking about buying the FBC1010 to switch scences during live shows with my band. I am really new to how midi works.
someone gave me an ADA midi controller MC-1 and thought it would work only to find out from Chris that it would only send program changes and not note on commands. please let me know if this unit will only control the three scenes as I don't want to spend the $150.00 for something that does not work so well. does anyone know of a different Note on midi controller that is compatable with the Magic 260? Thanks, Doug.

Form what I understand with the Behringer FBC1010 it can be programmed and is a lot more flexible. I personally don't own one so I can't comment on it.

I would suggest downloading the FBC1010 manual and dig in. I think that's the best route.

I would say if anyone is willing to send me a Magic260 and a FBC1010, I'd be willing to check it out. I'd have to learn both REAL fast!!!

Ideally, what I'd like to see hit the market is a software definable foot pedal. By this, I mean that the foot pedal requires a Mac/PC package to configure things. I get this idea from the Korg Nano-Series, which works exactly like this, but unless you got small feet, they don't have a food pedal controller so you'd have to use your toes to trigger the NanoPAD or nanoKEY controllers!

I think this software definable controller would be great for just about anyone having to do double duty on stage. A vocalist could use it to trigger their effects. A guitarist could use it for their goodies, or a bass player could, or as people here want to do, use it as a trigger controller for lighting or other FX.

So, if anyone is in the Sacramento, California area and have some time to kill within my insane schedule, I'm willing to try to help figure stuff out. Gotta come to me though!

Chris,

The FCB1010 is software editable. I do it all the time with "FBC1010 PC Editor." You do a midi dump to the computer, edit all the settings and then do a midi dump back to the board.

I have two keyboards, a rack synthisizer and a harmonizer which I use in live gigs. For each song I push two buttons on the FBC1010 and it sets up all these devises to the correct patch. [Using banks is an option I tried, but I like the direct mode much better.] to do this I had to become pretty knowledgeable about the board.

It has the ability to send 127 different notes, but as far as I know, there is no way to send the notes signal out on a different channel than the one it is set up for (which you can do, but it involves powering the unit off, and then you are stuck with the new channel). Therefore, if the Magic 260 would change scenes based on the note sent on a specified channel, it would work great with the FBC1010.

Inasmuch as that is not how the Magic 260 works, unless someone can tell me otherwise (and I hope they can), the Magic 260 is only marginally compatible with the most popular midi controller there is, the FBC1010 because of the way its firmware requires the signal to be sent to it. It's a real shame that the Magic 260 was designed that way.

I can't see any problem with how the Behringer FCB1010 works based on your description. It definately sounds like the weakness is the Magic 260.

The DMX Operator works off scenes, and you can access up to 128 scenes based on MIDI notes 0-127, since you only get one channel to work with. The DMX Operator supports 240 scenes and 6 chases. Even with the limitation of 128 accessible scenes, that is STILL a lot of scenes.

I guess different philisophies were at work during the R&D phases of certain products.

I like the fact that you mentioned the FBC101 has a PC based editor. That should make life easier for most owners. Nice! I might consider one as a second MIDI controller so I can punch up scenes while dealing with insane mixes with live bands while at the same time trying to monitor recording and video recording/switching.

Well Jury is that the verdict then, that the FCB1010 will only control 3 scenes and 1 show on the Magic 260? I see in the manual that the Magic 260 works on Midi channels, where the DMX operator works on Banks and note numbers within each bank. (I think I'm starting to see how this stuff works!) The reason I bought the Magic 260 was to have control of 24 fixtures as opposed to 12 on the Operator. Would anyone from ADJ care to comment on this subject? Thanks for your time, Doug.

Sorry I meant to say the Magic 260 works on Banks and note numbers but only to a value of 0-95. 0-72 to control scene 1-3 and 73-95 to control show 1. Since the unit will controll 24 fixtures 24x3=73 & 95-73=12 (12 scenes per show). I think I just answered my own question (did any one else just see that light bulb turn on over my head! lol) Oh well again thanks for your time, Doug.

Doug,

I think you are mostly right. However, I don't get why you are refering to fixtures. Fixtures aren't controlled by midi, only scenes and shows. It shouldn't make any difference how many fixtures are used in any scene chosen by a midi signal.

My guess is that when you send a midi note with a value from 1 to 24, the first of the three scenes assigned to that midi channel turns on. Notes 25-48 turn on the second scene; and notes 49-72 turn on the third scene; and notes 73-95 turn on the show on that midi channel.

The Magic 260 would be SOOOO much more midi friendly if it were more like the DMX Operator. Scenes 1-24 could be triggered with notes 1 - 72 and Shows 1-12 could be triggered with notes 73 - 95, ALL ON THE SAME MIDI CHANNEL.

ADJ: Is there any chance you could make this change with firmware for the Magic 260? Maybe it could be an optional firmware fix (so as not to mess anyone up who has already programmed the thing as is)?

Thanks,

Hobson

I don't see ADJ making changes to their controllers at this point in time. What's done is done. Unless there is a convenient firmware update procedure for the Magic260(it has a USB port, it's possible!), it would require a ROM yank/replace assuming it is socketted. This would definately be a pay upgrade in my opinion, but I don't work for ADJ, so it's not my place to say.

The statement that you're not controlling things via MIDI is also factually correct. You're calling scenes within your controller, but using MIDI to trigger the scene.

In the case of the DMX Operator, you can have 240 scenes, but you can only use 1 DMX channel. This restricts your instant access to scenes 1-128(which equate to MIDI notes 0-127). Chases are not accessible via MIDI triggering with the DMX Operator.

The DMX Operator CLAIMS to support 16 fixtures, but that's simply not an entirely accurate statement. It's based on DMX lights using 9 or more DMX channels. Now, I can control 32 lights if I want to with unique channels with the DMX Operator, more if I choose to go into lower channels of access modes for the fixtures. The DMX Operator works best with pre-programmed scenes, especially when your fixtures may cross-over the pre-determined addressing(16 channels per scanner button). The DMX Operator supports 192 DMX channels. If you're creative, you can get around the scanner button inconvenience issue by going into programming/editing mode. It's tricky, but do-able.

Another option might be for a product called MyDMX. It's software for Windows XP/Vista/Win7. It can accept MIDI triggers of YOUR CHOOSING, as well as continuous controllers for real-time channel manipulation. It does have what appears to be a hard limitation of 249 scenes per show file, but each scene can contain thousands of steps, allowing for complicated movement sequences and other nifty things. Since you're not restricted to just one MIDI channel, you can directly access all 249 scenes in MyDMX, assuming you have the gear that can help you get 249 potential triggers. Because MyDMX supports a full 512 DMX channels, it's ALMOST like getting a higher end console in a low-cost software package.

Hey Hobson, I am very new to the whole DMX-Midi concept. Although I have played in bar bands for many years (more than I care to say, lol) we have always used regular par cans. just recently within the last two months I purchased 8 LED par 64 cans for the front and 8 LED par 56 cans mounted on a truss for the back. I bought the Magic 260 to have total control of all the cans or "fixtures" because it can control a total of 24 "different" lights. I'm sure that you could group lights on the same dmx channel. like I said i'm def. a newbie to all of this but I was thinking that since each scene can control 24 different lights it would take 24 midi "notes" to make a scene and since 0-72 only controls 3 scenes I was thinking the math works out. and 73-95 controls a show, you could have 12 scenes in a show. I definitly could be way off base here, I'm still trying to figure all of this out. please let me know what you think, Doug.

I see where you are coming from, but based on Chris's answer, I'm pretty sure it's not correct. You are correct that the Magic 260 can control 24 different lights, each on its own dmx address - thereby allowing you to set each light separately (or you can control as many lights as you want, but if more than 24 other lights will have to share the same dmx address - thereby causing all the lights on same dmx address to do the same thing [unless they are different kinds of lights on the same dmx address - that gets really wierd].

Where you're going astray is mixing fixure control with midi control. They are unrelated. The internal workings of the Magic 260 memorize which fixtures go with which scenes and which scenes go with which shows. You select the scene or show with midi and the Magic 260 handles the fixtures, regardless of how many are included in the scenes triggered.

Hobson

Well, thinking is one thing. The specs of hardware is entirely different.

First, you're right in the fact that with lighting fixtures, you can certainly double(or more) up on the addresses. So, for example, the 8 Par56's, you could all assign to the same DMX address and they'll work fine. Of course, you limit yourself to them all doing the same thing at the same time and running basically as one fixture, but with DMX, there's nothing wrong with that in any way.

Now, each scene can control up to the maximum number of DMX channels the unit supports AND any DMX channel can be at any value from 0-512. So, yes, your controller has total control over all the fixtures at any given point in time.

Now, if you are thinking "notes to fixture", are you hoping to use velocity as the dimming function or something? What if a light has more than 1 DMX channel? In the case of my ADJ 64 LED Pro's(I have 8), I use them in 7 channel mode. How would a MIDI note map to this?

I'm not exactly sure where your logic is faltering. Right now you're definately confused. It's definately your newness to both MIDI and DMX. DMX isn't as complicated as MIDI. With limited knowledge of both, it's hard for you to make totally informed decisions. You should have worked with a consultant on this one. I don't think that the Magic 260 is going to fail you, but you might want to have someone controlling your Magic 260, it might work out better.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do. Are you running a club or are you a band that goes from bar to bar and need your own lights? I get the feeling you're a band that goes from place to place with your own light show now. I think for your application, you've got the wrong controller. Using a DMX Operator, you can have half your lights on Scanner buttons 1-4 and the other half on 5-8, leaving you 4 scanner buttons wide open. THIS IS ASSUMING you're running your fixtures in a 7 channel mode. If you're running in a 4 channel mode, you can halve those numbers. THEN you have direct MIDI access to notes 0-127, and hence 128 scenes at the ready. If you want to get lazy or use a hands off mode, you can always go into a chase mode for a song and go off the sound active feature on the DMX Operator if you wanted.

Let me talk briefly about the DMX Operator:
If you hit scanner button 1, you get direct access to DMX channels 1-8, then via the shift, get access to channels 9-16. If you are using ADJ 64 LED Pros in 7 channel mode, I'd assign a light to channels 1-7, then a second fixture to channels 9-16. I can double up too, by hitting multiple scanner buttons. Or I can double up by duplicating DMX addresses across various fixtures. Lets say I assign half the 64 Par cans to addresses 1-7, then the other half to 9-16, now on one button, I can control 8 lights. I can duplicate this for your Par56's. I can do a "right half/left half" or maybe an "evens/odds" configuration. That is, assuming this works out for you. Of course, you have enough channels to spread this out as well.

Based on what you want to do, the Magic 260 isn't going to work out. Due to you needing to do MIDI triggering(which is totally understandable) and the way MIDI is implemented into the Magic 260, it's not your foot controller that is the weak link, it's the Magic 260.

You may want to investigate the DMX Operator, DMX Operator 192 and DMX Operator Pro. There are definately other controllers to check out as well, but those ones I am rather familiar with and know they'd work good for you.

Of course, the other option might be MyDMX, where you can create complex scenes if you want AND still have MIDI trigger control of scenes PLUS a 3D Visualizer to let you see your work without having to have your lights set up. You can program off-line and then program it up and be ready for shows! Considering the price point of lighting consoles, this might be a good way to go. Since MyDMX can run on one of those dinky netbooks, hvaing a computer on stage doesn't need to be a big hassle.

Wow my brain hurts, lol.
I am in fact in a band that goes from bar to bar, and use these lights at the different clubs. Basicly I'm trying to keep our overhead down by runnig the lights from the stage and more $$ in my pocket. (sorry to all the light techs. out there.)
The bad thing about it is, I bought all this stuff on-line so there was never anyone to talk to about it. Then I found this forum (thank you so much, you both have saved me $$ buying stuff that would not have worked the way I wanted) I think I will download the MyDMX program and play around with that for awhile mean time I will probably use the audio line in from the Kick drum out of the sound board to trigger the scenes at our next gig sat. night. Thanks again on your promt responces, Doug.

I wouldn't use the kick out. Too many changes, sure to annoy the audience(and yourselves). You may want to integrate a gate into that mix and then use a side-chain out. But I'd then put an EQ into that side-chain out into another gate. Use that second gate to be your audio trigger as you might want to add some compression in to allow only the loudest drum hits to trigger.

If the Magic 260 has a sound response mode in the shows, use that instead. It will do the same thing but you'll have better control over sensitivity.

Lots of bands are looking to save money by not hiring sound companies(like me) as well as lighting companies(also, me).

DMX is definately NOT something you should jump blindly into. Neither is MIDI but MIDI gear is far more accessible for the most part. Either way, this gear is stuff you want to talk to a knowledgable person about before making the plunge.

The nice thing about MyDMX is that let's say you don't want to go with ADJ brand fixtures, it's not a problem. YOu have 2 choices: Make your own profiles or request to have one made. You'll probably move into making your own profiles after a while as you get more familiar with the product.

Also, no matter what you're considering, definately discuss it first. The whole idea is to prevent you from wasting money. I don't care if you're the little guy or the big companies, nobody needs to waste money.

Wasting money isn't something I can afford to do. I have to work cheap with top of the line gear to make any sort of income. People where I live only understand cheap. They don't understand or appreciate quality.

the club has a magic and I play with it but i do not know how to use it. i just press the buttons to change patterns, but the rest is german. I try to learn it but i just cannot learn it.

That's one of the many things I like with using MyDMX. While you can't lock it down to prevent users from making changes, you can use small descriptions for each button. With good organization, a newbie can walk up to it and at least have a clue what the scene button they press might be going to do. It's not perfect either, but at least you can try to take an informed approach.

But, the same issue can be said for the DMX operator like you say about the Magic 260. But the DMX Operator is a bit harder since you have to change banks and it's not as straight-forward to access all the scenes. I guess with small print and label strips, you can label the Magic 260 significantly easier. The DMX Operator would need a chart and a crash course:
"here are your scnes. Here is the bank button. Each bank has 8 scenes. Here is your chart. On the charge is your scenes with a description in each bank. Don't touch anything else!" Then you have to watch to make sure they get it.

MyDMX requires ALMOST no training if the programmer did a good job in the first place. Say "Leave it in user mode, then click the scene you want and if you don't like it, click another one, and don't feel you need to sit anywhere for any length of time if you don't want to." and then the training is usually done by then. I showed one DJ at an event that had 5 or 6 DJ's rotating through it. The one guy showed the others, who took turns running lights while waiting for their slot.

I'm not bashing DJ's. I trained one of my crew on how to use MyDMX super fast. It's just that easy to use.

Sometimes we needlessly complicate things. I don't see any problems with the DMX Operator or the Magic 260 per say. The DMX Operator I own is a great fallback unit for MyDMX, at least in my opinion.

With more bands buying lighting gear and trying to do the one-man show, or at least sticking it to us lighting and sound guys(you b@st@rds!!) by doing it all themselves, we add complication out of necessity. Personally, it's bad enough you gotta deal with a foot controller for your effects and sounds, but that seems natural to me. But to have to think about lights when you're playing, that just seems to be a distraction. Same as doing sound. Not to push for what I do, but sound should be handled by a sound company and lights by a lighting company, and if sound and lights are the same company, then that's mega cool as well and even better if more than one guy can deal with those issues.

Wow Chris, that seems a little harsh ("you b@st@rds!!") did'nt mean to piss anyone off.
Yes we run our Sound and lights from the stage to keep our overhead down. The reason for this is the clubs we play are small venues, the bar owners only care about one thing, thats what the little white piece of paper the register kicks out at the end of the night. If they are making money then you have a gig, if not then you don't. If I hire a sound and light company to come in and set up, And we do use them from time to time (at all our out door shows and large venues) they do not work cheap, And they should'nt. they have alot of money invested in thier own rigs. But face it 98% of the people in the crowd would'nt know the difference the other 2% are musicians that are gonna think you suck no matter what lol. I see exactly what you are saying, but with the economy the way it is I'm just lucky to be playing every weekend. If I tack on another 40% believe me I would only play once a month if that. I have been doing what I do for a long time, and it works. I don't think pushing a button on a floor unit to switch a light scene before a verse, or a chorus, or a solo would prove to demanding.
I am not bashing DJ's as-well but they are a one man show. they can do it for next to nothing and alot of the clubs here in the mid-west are going that route, So to compete we have to play for as cheap as possible. (believe me I would love to walk into a club and have everything already set-up pick up my guitar play the show and then leave, but I would probably only come out with $ 10 in my pocket!)
So I'm probably going to get tore a new one for this post but that is my situation and I'm sure thier are alot of bands, just like us doing the same thing.

I stopped worrying about pissing off people years ago. If you go into this business with a thin skin, you won't last. If you look to be offended, you'll find it and be offended and again, won't last.

And I totally hear what you're saying. I'm not trying to knock you down though by saying "You b@st@rds". It's more of a joke.

Bar owners want CHEAP bands to bring in CHEAP folks to suck down OVERPRICED booze. If the band can't land butts through the door, they fully intend to shaft the band. Now, I've seen a lot of the bar bands, and really, the suck, and most suck HARD. But, get this: I've seen a few good ones too.

The issue both you and I face are nearly identical. Some of the circumstances vary, but otherwise, it's almost the same.

First, you have to work for cheap to work. Why? Bars don't want to pay for anything except booze and anything else effects their bottom line. You're not being treated as promotional, you're being looked at as a expense only. Now, let's just say you're one of the better bands: Isn't the expense of the cost of hiring the band justified through the influx of cash generated by the purchase of booze? I would say if you're pulling in good numbers, then yes.

How do you get paid? Well, some places charge a cover, some use a 2-drink minimum mentality, some do both. I know of a DJ who keeps getting boned because they expect him to watch the door since they charge a cover, so he's being paid on the cover charge, and they shaft him time after time. He can't spin AND check the door.

Bands and DJ's are getting shafted hardcore in this area. It's almost like you said in your example, you pick up your guitar and do an event and you might end up netting $10. Did that even cover your gas? This just angers me, especially for any halfway decent band. Sure, most aren't trying to get rich doing this, but they deserve more than a pittance at the end of the night to justify what they are doing. That's why most break up or stop working, it just isn't financially worth it.

I'm not intentionally bashing you for doing your own sound and lights. I have found though when most bands do this on their own, they end up with both band sound and bad lights, and often as well, bad performance. Even a good band can have a better chance of an off-night taking on too much. This isn't fair to them or their audience. But I get it, you DO need to cut your costs because you're making peanuts. But, at the same time, you're investing in gear, and that costs money. Now it takes you forever to recoup your investment. For you, as the "financier", it becomes harder and harder to justify you doing what you're doing because the money sucks and you just put a buttload of dough into it.

Me, I have to take a different position. First, I love what I do. Second, like you, people want cheap. I also agree that most wouldn't know good sound from bad sound, and those who do, well, they typically don't go out to most events because typically event sound sucks. Third, I have to treat this as a business harder than perhaps you do, and for reasons you've pointed out. I work off contracts only now, even for small events and one-offs. I do a few exceptions but they are to my kid's school and I do that work for free. I had a kid 2 years ago hire me for an event, and wanted me to work super cheap, which I begrudgingly agreed to. But, he refused to get a contract back to me, and so I had no choice but to not even bother to show up and take another gig. He's crying and whining and panicing and I said to him that he had to turn in a contract 48 hours before the time my truck would have to roll, and he failed to do so, and other people wanted the date. What am I to do? No contract = no work. I have to also take the position of the fact that I don't give a crap what the band is making or HOW they are getting paid. I am guaranteed my payment. I can't watch doors or tally the bar or food services. I get there at 6AM, am setting and doing everything to set a show for a 5-6PM start time(maybe later) and am there until 2AM loading out so I can hit the road and go home.

The way I see it is that bands should treat their services the same way: They are guaranteed their pay for the night. The club needs to realize that there is value there. But as you pointed out, if the numbers aren't there, then perhaps the band won't be back. Understandable, but as I typically see it, when the numbers are low, the band or DJ gets screwed.

You know, when at a big talent show, say an A-list event, they are guaranteed their money, regardless of draw. There are often provisions for profit sharing or extra pay for sold out shows or sometimes even encores(agreed upon in advance, but also have to be approved most likely day of). Like, let's say they normally do 2 encores, they might say "hey, well, we have a full house based on sales, how about I throw in another encore for $X", which is in the contract, but has to be approved of by the promoter, since he's forking out the money.

Here's a funny one. Each year, the city I live in throws events. I don't go, mainly due to 2 things: I don't give a crap and I don't know about them. And even if I knew about them, I typically also don't give a crap. But people come to me complaining about the sound time and time again. I keep saying "Why are you telling me about it? I didn't do it. Why don't you tell the city to hire me for the event." Well, the city won't hire me, and yet I still hear of whining. I've even offered serves for free to "give back to the community", but they won't take the offer. Oh well, only so much I can do.

Forget economic downturn. This business of abusing bands, sound and lights has been really bad for at least 10 years. The current recession has only been an excuse for the whole situation to get worse for musicians, sound and lighting, even video and recording(which I also offer). When people start to realize that quality has a cost again and that you don't have to settle for crap, things will turn around. But until then, people want their crappy MP3's NOW and that's the level of trash the expect. It's getting hard to compete with consumers who expect and demand the lowest levels. I'm lucky to be working monthly. I have a few recurring gigs, and while they don't put enough money on the table, they are satisfying enough that I keep working with them. And with my using up to 2-4 regular crew, I have to raise my rates to pay them as well. It's hard to justify this on paper to ignorant people. When they see what I do, then it starts to make good sense. They usually say "gee, you bring in a ton of gear" to which I have to correct them and say "It's a lot closer to 5000 pounds, actually".

Do what I do: Keep going on. I love what I do and I won't quit. I'm not bashing you for doing your own sound and lights because I get where you're coming from. It's hard enough for you to work, just as it's hard enough for me to work. I have to compete with bottom-feeders and crappy gear to do my job because people don't care about quality, they just care about what it's gonna cost them, NOT what they make back from it. I recommend we all, be you sound, video, recording, lights, DJ, musicians or bands, to work with a contract. Guarantee your pay. Do your best each and every night and do not compromise your own work. Prove your worth each and every night. And if they can't appreciate your work(Read: don't hire you back), then you don't need to be there. Find somewhere that can appreciate you.