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Yeah, I know you're all tired of complaint posts but it's not my job to troubleshoot this product that never should have been put on the market. It would be a GREAT product... if only it did what it is supposed to do, have decent sound quality, and work in a manner consistent with the cue, channel, and mic standards I've come to expect over 20 years of DJing. Standards set by brand names like Pioneer, Numark, Rane, Denon, and even Gemini (and Hercules for controller/sound cards). I've DJed on all those products and while they each had their nuances on every one of their products I could hear my cue, play my music and speak in a mic without distortion (I won't even get into the bizarre frequency levels your EQs are set on).

What it all boils down to is I expect to use most any mixer and have it generally respond the way I expect it to based on 20 years of DJing. When judged by that simple standard, every mixer I've ever used passes the test but the VMS4 is a total failure. On that fact alone this thing should not be for sale.

I bought the VMS4 at the DJ Expo in Atlantic City. I'll give the ADJ rep some credit: he told me straight up there was an issue with the mic. But I had no idea how bad it would be; and he never told me about the low cue volume, and the distortion in the sound.

You guys started to lose me when I got home from the expo. I was very excited to set it up but I ran into some issues and emailed ADJ support. It's over three weeks now and I STILL have not received a response. So I figured it out for myself and DJed a couple very busy Washington DC clubs... I've never been so embarrassed. When I went to make announcements the crowd could not understand me through the distortion. As the night went on the music distortion became more & more noticeable. My amplified booth monitor that I've used for years with multiple mixers sounded like I was sending the signal through a chipmunk sound effect.

So I visited the forums and here's what I learned:

1) I'm not supposed to tell you I'm unhappy... I'm only supposed to help you troubleshoot this thing. Then that results in posts from technicians that are essentially saying the way I've DJed for 20 years is wrong, I need to change it.

So here's what I did: I followed the instructions in YOUR manual for setting the gains and the main level. My mic distortion was worse than ever. I tried two mics and three cables. So I tried holding the mic further away - but I can't hold the mic further away because the ambient music enters and starts making feedback (don't you have any DJs on staff that talk while music is playing?). So I tried turning up my amps and turning down the channel gains... but then I can't hear the cue signal coming through my Sony MDR-V700 headphones which I've used without issue with all other major mixers. Since my sets are more about music than talking I have no choice but to keep the gains where I would normally and avoid using the mic as much as possible (and I thought my Hercules RMX had bad mic performance!!).

I'm a computer technician for a major computer company. I understand that things go wrong and that bugs can be found in new hardware. But what I don't accept is having NO ONE respond to my email to support. What I don't expect is to be told on one post to turn the gains up to fix the cue problem, then on another post turn the gains down to fix the mic problem. Ridiculous.

Seriously, did you ever once test this thing in a club environment?

So unless I can expect a firmware update that improves these issue before I'm able to return or sell this thing, I'm done with the VMS4. In the meantime I'm getting my little Hercules back out and I'm boxing up the VMS4 and asking the good people at Chuck Levin's to please give me credit toward another product (fortunately I live near the retailer that sold it to me at the expo).

If I can't return it I invite any forum members who think they might want this thing to contact me for a sale price. I even have a flight case I bought & modified just for the VMS4 that I'll sell you cheap. No matter what, I'm sure to lose money on this and that really makes me mad.

Let me make one thing clear: if ADJ was to provide some real tech support & treat their customer's with respect (instead of allowing techs to post on here like they're Jimmy Fallon's tech support nerd from Saturday Night Live - talking to us like we're idiots who can't use this thing) I'd keep it. As a controller I love it. As a sound card / mixer it is horrible.

When I told one of my oldest DJ buddies I bought this, he sucked in his breath & said, "oooooo... I've have bad experiences with American Audio..." So are you going to let him say, "I told you so" or fix this thing (BTW, a recall counts as a fix in my book so recall away!).

And PLEASE don't ask me to provide you with the brand of mics and brand of cables and how hot the gain was and how hot the master was... THAT'S YOUR JOB! In 20 years of DJing I've never had a company ask me to troubleshoot a product I paid hundreds of dollars for ($50 off retail at the expo isn't enough for this headache). If you want me to beta test this thing then give me all my money back and I'll suffer through it. Otherwise give me my money back and let me get a product that meets my needs.

Whew. That feels better.
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I love this controller and think it is Ideal for my DJ service company. However I did have to return it to the dealer today due to two problems.

1. Distorted mic signal.

I tried a wide range of mics, mic cables, vocal processors and the sound from the mic was distorted with every aplication. I run a karaoke show as well and I need my mics to sound as good as possible.

2. The XLR outputs had only 1/8 the power output of the master RCA and Booth, and for what ever reason, I had more volume to my right chanel than my left.

I would prefer to use the XLR outputs to my amp or active speaker not the RCAs with a XLR adapter.

I had huge hopes for the VMS4 and still think these issues can be fixed but as said above by the OP these are not issues that can be fixed with a update. So back it went.

I would still be interested in re-buying the VMS4 if these issues are addressed in a VMS4 V2
@Rizzo: While I appreciate your frustration, your coming on this board and ripping apart not only the VMS4 and people working for the company ("...allowing techs to post on here like they're Jimmy Fallon's tech support nerd from Saturday Night Live") is not going to invite much sympathy from the people you are asking to help.

I personally monitor these boards daily to address issues as much as possible. And the reason why I ask DJs detailed questions is we can get down to the bottom of the problem much quicker this way. If you want us to fix your issues while being vague and just saying the product sucks, it's just an invitation for a flame war without any positive resolution.

Not to offend your 20 years of DJing, this is a MIDI controller with added mixer functionality, not the other way around. So we do clarify as much as possible what to do to make the VMS4 sound and work properly. The VMS4 will operate differently from a traditional mixer due to the lower output level.

Enough said, onto the issues:

There is an issue with some mics which will distort badly and we are addressing this issue right now. This issue can be fixed with a MIC gain reducer or impedance adapter. We're discussing internally right now not only how to support current customers but also work changes in the future VMS4s.

We are also addressing the issue with a lower than ideal master output. Definitely this can be compensated with increased amp volume, but higher master output would be better.

You will have a lot more luck with the VMS4 if you set it as follows:

Set the Gains and EQs high on the channels to get plenty of cue volume.

Set the master gain low to prevent distortion on the master and MICs. The master cue is PFL so even if you have master gain very very low, you will still have plenty of master volume through the headphones.

Please do me a favor before you sell this thing, try what I've suggested and let me know how it works.
I pretty much agree with DJ Rizzo's comments. I had the VMS4 for a week before I returned it. It should have never gone to market in the released condition.

I'm not flaming here just posting constructive criticism having been a DJ for 26 years.

Even during initial testing with my home system I could tell there were serious issues. The master output levels were too low, but boosting the gains and EQ's caused distortion. The mic quality is frankly terrible und unusable and I can't believe no-one picked up the cue bug during testing.

There is no way this unit was tested in a club environment by anyone who has a clue about sound quality.

I understand AA are trying their best to sort things out, but given the issues with low master (distortion) and the mic quality (distortion) are on a hardware level then I believe AA should recall all current units and replace them once the issues have been corrected.

Another thing I'd like to comment on is the build quality. Having used Denon, Pioneer and Technics units for many years the VMS4 is poor in comparison. I know the sell price is less than competitors but that's no excuse for shoddy assembly. On the unit I had one of the play buttons worked intermittently and the left hand jog dial scraped badly when being turned. Again, why did that pass QA at the factory?

Sorry AA, you made a mess of this one. Instead of trying to tell experienced people what to do in a condascending tone you should be recalling these units.

Keith
quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
Set the Gains and EQs high on the channels to get plenty of cue volume.

Surely that is just going to invite distortion to the party?

I've already detailed what happens when adding even small amounts of EQ to a channel, even when it's running at 0dB (the accepted standard).

What I found (and it's detailed in another thread) is that to avoid distortion, you need to run the channels LOWER than 0dB.

This has been witnessed and confirmed by Simon Fletcher from ADJ UK, when I demonstrated it to him at my house.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Rob:

I would still be interested in re-buying the VMS4 if these issues are addressed in a VMS4 V2


MK2 please, i know a lot of people who cross fingers and prays every night for it...

God bless AA... i m sure they know exactly what they have to do...
@GroovinDJ: If you set the VMS4 Gain, EQs, and channel all the way to the max, as long as the master is low enough there will be no distortion. I wrote the VMS4 DSP code to work this way. The reason why adding EQ causes distortion in your testing is because everything combined with the master will cause distortion. I mentioned this fix specifically because Rizzo complained that when he turned the EQs down he wasn't getting enough headphone volume, and I'm sure this way of setting up the VMS4 will resolve the problem.

@DJ Stardust: I try my best to help out everyone here. Sorry if I came across as condescending, but Rizzo's attitude that someone like myself who's been the life force getting the VMS4 to happen should not contribute my expertise and knowledge about this product is absurd.

Regarding the issues that Rizzo brought up, I am already working with ADJ to get these resolved both for products out on the market and for future production.

I also understand if you are used to setting up in a club where the mixer master is much higher, the curent VMS4 outputs are much lower. Higher gain on the output amp is a workaround, but your expectation is this shouldn't be necessary because it isn't necessary on other equipment you've used in the past.
Rizzo, one quick question. What address did you send your email to? On my unit I don't have distortion, but I get a low level hum with all channels down. My unit is a pre-production unit, and this may be the difference. My point is the unit was tested, mine though studio monitors in my studio, and through some QSC K-12's K-Subs. I agree with the controller aspect = Great! But I have reported some sound issues. Writing this though, I just had an ideal, which I will have to test. I will let you know asap.
I'm pretty sure that issues are totally fixable and VMS4 will have a big positive impact in digital djing.
Now, the main question is: a lot of people clearly have great interest in this unit but actually don't buy it cause some major issue need minor hardware modifies and a firmware update can't solve at all. So, WHEN (a generic timeline will be appreciate) a FIXED VMS4 will be avaiable on the market OR simply VMS4 will be replaced by a "VMS4 RMX" in a remote future?

Clearly an answer will move the market 'cause anyone can wait a pair of months for a fully-functional-fixed unit but 6 months or more will move interest in another units.
Last edited by Former Member
I was waiting for the vms4 till march, i had a vci 300 before, and when i buy the vms4 i went @ a friends club to see what the soundcard look like. I xasn't friendly with traktor, but i knowed about all his feature.

I was on xlr output in an club environnement, first i tried vdj, and i tough the sound looks like weird.. then in traktor ^^... just wonderfull better than the vci 300, i tried mic too @ a low level but sorry to say that but i have no distorsion when all my eq high and my main low, but i admit the mic output is not really strong... The only issue i had was with the recording option trough traktor that was fixed very fast by ermax with an update (48000 mhz) i'm on mac, and also the rca output are nto the best that's why i buy a xlr to rca what resolve all my probs. Well for me i don't regret that buy just because i love it, and it's midi assignable so i think there will be more mapping for all software so be patient..


Sorry for my bad english i tried to do my best to explain my choice.
quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
@Rizzo: While I appreciate your frustration, your coming on this board and ripping apart not only the VMS4 and people working for the company


emarx, I can understand his frustration and TBH I did not see his post as "flamming" more as a "rant" which is what it really is. Rizzo is just trying to get things off of his chest. I would be to if support e-mails were unansewered for that long!

But, and as Rizzo points out, it's very easy for the mods and yourselves to jump on us when we critise, but you are not the ones who have laid out the cash to buy the unit.

As customers we have every right to be upset. As a supplier you have the right to listen and respond appropriately. Jumping back on us or "dumbing down" our knowledge and experience only adds to the frustration and probably prevents others from posting in case they get jumped on too.

Remember "The customer is always right" - which we know actually means - suck in what the customer said - whatever they say - and respond in a professional manner.

I think I have been pretty reserved compared to how I actually feel. My mistake was to sell the mixer/midi combo that served me so well to buy the VMS4... That was my mistake and it's what stopping me from ranting!!!

quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
I personally monitor these boards daily to address issues as much as possible. And the reason why I ask DJs detailed questions is we can get down to the bottom of the problem much quicker this way.


I for one appreciate that and know how difficult it must be when you were so closely involved with the project to hear all these negative comments.

I'm glad to see you're working on them and hope that these issues can be resolved one way or another. Either for us or for future MkII owners!

quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
Not to offend your 20 years of DJing, this is a MIDI controller with added mixer functionality, not the other way around.


This is by far the most important statement I have read on these forums so far and now changes my opinion and outlook on the VMS4.

I was attracted to it because I was an AA mixer customer and was impressed with the Q-SD. Thinking you were adding MIDI support to your experience in mixers was a big reason behind my decision to go with the VMS4 - and to sell my Q-SD beforehand!!!

To hear that this is the other way round makes me wonder if the guys behind your mixer products were involved with the design of the VMS4. Were they?

My setup prior to the VMS4 was a rackmounted Q-SD and Hercules RMX in one case - Analogue mixer + MIDI controller. Can you understand now how we might be frustrated??

quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
Enough said, onto the issues:

There is an issue with some mics which will distort badly and we are addressing this issue right now. This issue can be fixed with a MIC gain reducer or impedance adapter. We're discussing internally right now not only how to support current customers but also work changes in the future VMS4s.

We are also addressing the issue with a lower than ideal master output. Definitely this can be compensated with increased amp volume, but higher master output would be better.


Glad to see they have been recognised and it would've been even better if they were taken as "potential issues" in the beginning rather then the knee jerk repsonse we originally got that there was no way it could be an issue.

quote:
Originally posted by emarx:
You will have a lot more luck with the VMS4 if you set it as follows:

Set the Gains and EQs high on the channels to get plenty of cue volume.

Set the master gain low to prevent distortion on the master and MICs. The master cue is PFL so even if you have master gain very very low, you will still have plenty of master volume through the headphones.


I will try out your suggestion as for the last two weeks I have had to slave the VMS4 off of a DJM-600 to get a level of volume close to acceptable in a club.

Using the setup as described in the manual, with the DJM channel gain turned to max and the VMS4 running at +4, I can't even hit the top green VU on the DJM channel VU!

I will report back in the next couple of weeks and let you know.

Cheers,

Roy
When I designed the VMS4 one of the main goals was to make it fully operable by either USB 5V power or a power adapter. So for example if you lost the power adapter you could stil run the entire product off of a laptop USB port. Another plus is if you are running off of a laptop and the laptop crashes, it is possible for the VMS4 to run immediately as a backup mixer, even with the power adapter missing.

This design goal meant cutting back in every way possible on the power consumption. With all of the mixer, MIDI functionality, and LEDs built into this product, it was a huge challenge to make the VMS4 capable of working off of 5V 500mA from the USB circuit. When the 5V adapter is removed and the VMS4 is just running off of USB power, the VMS4 dims all of the LEDs to ensure that the USB port doesn't get overloaded.

I also did the AEM-100i mixer design and have exposure to a wide variety of mixers based on doing the Innofader. So I appreciate the value of beefy power supplies for getting full sound on the headphones and master. But I also know that the #1 reason for service on the AEM-100i mixers is DJs lose the power adapter and need to buy a new one. I believe there is quite a bit of value to having the flexible power configuration on the VMS4.

Hopefully you can see it's not like we're on a mission to cheat you out of something here. In every design there are tradeoffs. To beef up the master and headphones:

1) At the minimum the VMS4 would have to lower the LED output when running off of just the USB cable, and:
2) With a huge boost on the outputs, it would be impossible to run the VMS4 off of USB power only and the power adapter would always need to be connected.

As far as a solution for the VMS4s you guys have, I believe Stevie Ray is talking about a simple retrofit on the power supply. Please be patient because we are testing the solution first to make sure it works properly.

Roy - just curious how many dB did you have to boost the VMS4 output to achieve adequate sound on your club sound system?
Hello aziz I am almost certain that out LED's on the VMS4 do not have a value Range, they are off at zero and on at any value from 1-127. Elliot will you please confirm that there is or is not currently 1-127 intensity values on the LED's. Aziz as far as the Blue LED's go those are assinged to the buttons secondary command, wich is atwo button command Shift and the button. Please note that Only Sync/Rance, 1/5,2/6,5/7,4/8, and the LOOP section have blue LED's.
Maybe a question about the future of VMS4 in a thread with a title like this is a bit more important than a LED color so we all will appreciate a feedback by AA specialists to a question posted days ago:

the main question is: a lot of people clearly have great interest in this unit but actually don't buy it, scared by some major issue that need minor hardware modifies and a firmware update can't solve at all. So, WHEN (a generic timeline will be appreciate) a FIXED VMS4 will be avaiable on the market OR simply VMS4 will be replaced by a "VMS4 RMX" in a remote future?

Thanks in advance.
I can say that i did have some problems at first.
And AA was helpful even more so when i picked up the phone and called them. the staff there is a great bunch of guys. The product is new, and with all things new your gonna have some problems. They have in my 9 years with them never failed to deliver, so give them time i am sure they will resolve all issues. I wanted to return my unit but after going over software, and firmware installs, and i'm a club environment DJ I finally got the unit to work very well all on it's own. And im sure with new updates to come the unit will work better. I just hope that if they find hardware issues that AA will own up to it, and not forget the first owners of this... The VMS4 by: American Audio. I hope they work things out for you in a timely fashion.
I have used my VMS4 now for over a month. I have used the mic input on both channels with no problem at all for upto 2 hours at a time. Used it in a club environment and as a basic mixer

I have compared the unit to a Ecler Nuo and had it standing side to side and run it through the ecler and it had comparable outputs with no distortion. Headphones not a problem and no channel blead.

TBH I have had no problems at all with the unit. Maybe I got lucky but I am really happy with the way it works.

A happy VMS4 user with no issues seems quite a rarity on this forum.

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