Par can rigs rock!

Whoa, nice job. That stage looks great! I'm in a band that just bought 8 par 38's with a floor controller and we thought THAT was cool. You seem to know a lot about light placement. We've been looking for advice on where to put our lights to get the most out of them. We also have a Par 38 on top of each main speaker and on each speaker stand, beneath the speaker, for a total of 12 lights. I'd love some advice on how to light a 4-piece rock band.

I've been doing lights for a band for about a year. I started w/ their lights and controller. They had 2 adj dimmer packs (4 channel) and 8 par 56 cans (4 250 watt and 4 300 watt). I knew that if I was going to do lights, I wanted more interaction and options. I added a few scanners, then replaced the cans w/ 4 color washes. I loose that awesome look of 2-3 different color cans lighting the same target for different angles, but w/ an 8 can system, you only get about 4 or 5 combos for the guys in the front of the stage (at least 2 have to point to the drummer behind them). So the washes allow me to do any color anywhere, and since there isnt a color wheel (its 3 bulbs doing RGB mixing) it just morphs from color to color. Add a little fade to it so it nicely blends/transitions from color to color. Makes neat chases that flow from front to back, around in a circle, etc. Pretty tripy looking. My latest rig that Im putting together is based around the Dura Truss. This truss will be over/behind the drum kit. On it will be 2 DJ Spot 250s on the ends, then 4 pocket scans (2 on each side just inside of the spots), then a trackpod 30 in the center that will probably be aimed forward as an effect rather than to light the ground underneath it. I'm using a show designer 2d, so I can easily run it as a 48 channel device. Each of the 8 pods can be any color which will make for some interesting chases and kind of a centerpoint for the stage. I will probably use 2 of those washes I own in the front corners of the stage to cover the front of the stage and lightly get the drummer. Im a bit worried about getting enough amps from the wall. Most of the bars we play have a ****py setup for power. The truss itself will take about 1000 watts when everything is on, and the pocket scans stay on for 10 minutes after you use them so they will basicly be on all night. The washes use 3 500 watt bulbs, so I figure about 400 to maybe 700 watts each there. Thats 1000 + 1400 + 450 watt fogger. Then there are the band's amps. Usually the PA will be in a different circuit though. Hope Im not drawing too much. I dont plan on having everything on all the time. Infact I want to start dimming it down a bit so that the scans and dj spots stand out a bit more. Oh, and I do my programming in my garage which its power was just tacked on to another circuit from the house and cant power anything I have to fog up first, then turn it off, work on the scaners/spots, then do the washes when they are done. Makes it a little tuff but it turns out fine. I'll take some pics when I have received the truss and trackpod!

As for positioning the lights, your always stuck with what room is available. Some venues I could put a stand on either side of the stage (its hard to get the tip of the lead singer's nose lit sometimes because you just cant get infront enough because of the speakers on the front corners of the stage) or sometimes I get stuck w/ 1 stand well infront but to the side of the stage. In this setup I actually placed pars on both the top and bottom of the T-bar on the stand and just mounted both dimmer packs from it as well. They dont weigh much at all, its just a power issue (300 watts x 8 all in 1 plug... not that they will all be on full often or at all). Using the speaker stands is a good idea just to get a few different angles in there. Par 38s are good for that too since your closer and dont need as much throw distance for the light (just a narrow beam). Oh! And higher is usually better for light placement. Rather than lighting the wall behind you, having the light at 9-12' above so it lights just you and the floor around you makes a big difference. The problems is 1 light will no longer light arcoss the stage (low angle will light the whole front of the stage, and might cause some shadow issues depending on the lights placement and where the closest person to the light is). So higher needs more lights, or atleast fewer color mixing options. For 8 pars I'd say get it high enough that any light casting beyond the stage doesnt light the wall/windows/picture frames/etc that might be in its path and try to have each light hit multiple people if you can. If your stands are to the sides of the stage, then the lights nearest the front of the stage need to point to the guys on the front of the stage or they will have shadows on the front of their faces. Having a light near the front of the stage to light the drum kit behind you isnt a bad idea either because if you step back from the mic, you will enter this light rather than a dark part of the stage. See what works for you. Hope your stages have more room/power than mine do

--Kevin

Consider flying the front lights. Flying the front wash/spots is definately the best way to go (if possible). It gives you much more flexibility in how you focus them as well as their desired coverage. As long as the rig is in front of the stage (as opposed to directly overhead), you're good to go. It really solves issues of how to isolate the spots without catching someone else in the light, not to mention that it avoids blinding the performers with lights that hit them in the face at eye-level. Likewise, it also aviods the use of tripods/crankstands/lifts in the front, particularly when dance floor space is limited. This also proves to be safer for the rigs because no one can trip over a stand's leg and crash it, so it's definately safer with that respect.

There are a variety of ways to fly a front rig safely and inexpensively. We've done it for years without lifts/hoists and complex rigging. Not to mention it can be done almost as quickly as running them up a stand. Granted each venue is different and there isn't always the availble structure to fly lights from. Just remember to use safety cables as failsafes, and dont hang lights from water/gas/sprinkler pipes.

It may be a little more work to run the cables high, but it's totally worth it because it's all up and out of the way, and will be just where you left it. Not to mention the show looks great.

if you are going to fly a truss or speakers make sure you are trained and using the right equipment. If in doubt don't do it... or hire a rigger.... A small rig improperly rigged can kill or hurt many people who happend to be in the path of the falling truss.

I agree when possible fly your rig. No doubt about it , it looks 100x better. Par cans are great however i've always been a moving light guy. You can achieve the same effects as pars plus a whoooole lot more. anyway just my 2 watts.

Yeah guys, flying you rig is always nice. I work at a convention hotel, I fly rigs all the time, it looks really nice. My target audience doesn't have the cash to spend on hiring a real rigger or renting chain motors (even if I owned them). Also, leaving the lights on nice crank lifts still keeps you open to do outside "festival" gigs.

The goal of my lighting at this point is to be able to setup, run, and tear down the system with two people. No massive rigging calls. Keep it as simple as possible.

It is always easy to say, yes intels look better than a par show. The truth of the matter is that the output of a par with a 600 watt lamp is way more than an AMDJ color 250 or simple color changer. I have seriously thought about buying some of those new Elation CMZ Zoom 250 fixtures. Great concept, color mixing, less power, less lamps to replace. It would take 6 of those fixtures to replace the amount of area lighting I get from my pars. At this point it is still too expensive for me. I would have to raise my rates even higher (which isn't always bad), I would probably lose my little niche audience. The system has worked fine thus far, I'll get some new scanners and make my system even nicer.

Another good thing about having lots of pars is their versatility. With just 16 pars I can:

>Load two crank lifts with eight cans and provide massive front light for a small play.


>Take 4 stands with four lights on each and do a rock show with stands on each corner of the stage providing basic front and back light.



>Attach 12 cans to mic stand bases for room lighting in a gym while the last four get mounted on two lifts for basic stage wash.



That is with just 16 cans. I own 36 cans. I wouldn't get this much versatility if I had 6 of those Elation fixtures. The idea is to provide not only rock show lighting but atmosphere lighting, being able to walk into a room and say, "you want your ceiling blue?" , "Sure I can make your ceiling blue". I hope that makes sense.

Just food for thought.

Thanks for all the responses, keep them coming. I greatly appreciate the advise, I love chiming back to you folks.

I hope you dont get the impression I was trying to bash you and your pars... that was not my intention I understand that you deal primarily with smaller venues and in those cases on a smaller budget pars are you option. However, with moving lights especially moving heads (if they are within your budget) offer far greater possibilities. I own many many moving heads from many manufacturers. Among my line up is 10 elation power wash 250's. I absolutely love them. They allow me to do any type of wash effect I want. And at a moments notice I can cue up another program and have them aiming and washing a completely different area. However, everything depends on the venue you are working at and the budget that you can afford. Par's are good but I will always feel moving lights offer far greater versatility while still being able to achieve the same effects as pars.... just my 2 watts.

Also its not a huge deal but when you hook up ur fixtures put the power/relay/dimmer pack and all the cables behind the rig or facing the other way. Just looks a little more pleasing to the eye when theres no wires running a muck all over the place!

Looks nice, tuckersound!

Stick to your goals. From what I've seen & read, I'm sure you'll achive it.

quote:

Originally posted by MadMikey:
[qb] I hope you dont get the impression I was trying to bash you and your pars... that was not my intention I understand that you deal primarily with smaller venues and in those cases on a smaller budget pars are you option. However, with moving lights especially moving heads (if they are within your budget) offer far greater possibilities. I own many many moving heads from many manufacturers. Among my line up is 10 elation power wash 250's. I absolutely love them. They allow me to do any type of wash effect I want. And at a moments notice I can cue up another program and have them aiming and washing a completely different area. However, everything depends on the venue you are working at and the budget that you can afford. Par's are good but I will always feel moving lights offer far greater versatility while still being able to achieve the same effects as pars.... just my 2 watts. [/qb]

I see it both ways, both types have their advantages, and both have their disadvantages. Pars have much more brightness, power, and some awesome looks when many are used on a stage, while intels have color changers, gobos, and can move. In my opinion the best show would be done with a mixture of both.
Borris

Thanks guys for the responses. The next goal. Some nice scanners. Looking at some M@rtin 518's or some Trackspots.

Sorry for the stupid question, what exacly does it mean to "fly" your rig?


KC

Flying your fig- In my opinion is using heavy crank up devices to not have things on the ground to get rid of distracions and it is also possibly mounted to a stage above it is what fly means, to put the lights up not on a stand up by having chain like cranks.

Here is a few pictures of my lighting rig so far, theres not to many lights but atleast ive finally got some pics to show you all. Ill try to get them posted, i tried once without luck.

When I say fly my lights, I mean hang them without the use of tree stands. I try to do this for my front lights as often as I can because 1. I can get the front lights higher up than with stands, 2. It looks much better (aesthetically), 3. Light coverage are better, and 4. No one can touch, move, or bump my lights once I have set them up.

I'm not sure if the term flying can apply to cranking up trussing or not. I'm not a professional rigger, so I wouldn't know for sure. I suppose at one time or another I've applied the term both ways. So what the heck, as long as someone knows what I'm saying, who cares what term we use. Hehe.

Best,
-Tech

Flying lights:

Flying lights refers to having your lights mounted overhead above the crowd buy use of chain motors, winches, etc. Its nice, way safer than using crank lifts, and looks professional......

The downside: Rigging itself is very dangerious. You have to be in the ceiling of a buiding, on a lift, or on a ladder to hang "points" for your motors to fly on. Also, if you rig something wrong, your truss can fall and kill someone. A lot of venues require union riggers to rig. That can get expensive, but you will have peace of mind.

I am quite happy having my lights on crank lifts. It works well for me, I don't have to worry about chain motors, or hiring riggers, etc.

Here is some pictures of my all Par-Can rig... Hopefully this will work this time.. please let me know what ya all think!

web page

lookin good, you should get an I- beam to add to those stands and some intels would be nice too.
just a thought


KC

I agree with Tucker. Flying lights is serious business. I only fly two banks of 4 lights each (on an aluminum bar, not trussing) for front wash and spots. Both rigs are made of aluminum to reduce weight-related stress. We multipinned everything, so there isn't even a dimmer up there with them. The dimmers are located in a rack, safely positioned on stage. Everything is up with hanging straps and aircraft safety cables as failsafes. This is very safe, durable, and easy to manage.

I wouldn't fly truss without chain lifts whatsoever. There is too much that can go wrong.

9-12 foot trees are ok for smaller venues, but when you have a stage that is 1-3 feet off the ground, those front lights on 9 foot stands suddenly become more and more eye-level for performers, which is not so cool. Hence the dilemma.

So basically, I try to fly my front lights as often as I can.

As with anything, if you aren't sure how to do it, or you are not sure of how safe it is, don't do it. It's not worth the potential danger. It may work once or twice, but it can come back to bite you if you press your luck too far.

Best,
-Tech

shynee,
Thanks for the suggestion. I am looking to probably buy some crank up stands and atleast 10 foot or so worth of trussing to use. The stands I am looking to get will probably climb approximately 15 feet high or atleast I am hoping so. I have thought about potential I-beam trussing but I am not sure it's what I want to do with the future plans I have stored in my little head.

I am also looking to get some PAr-56's in addition to what I have their, if everything works out the way im hoping it will these should be bought by August 2005!! Yeppy! Along with a dimmer pack or two to control the lights with my newer boughten controller!!

Dude I started out with 8 cans - then 16 cans - now 36 cans. They are cheap, versatile, and make everyone happy.

I got to use my new Opti-Par 30s this weekend. Excellent! I never realized what I was missing by not running par cans. Now I'm hooked. Think I need to add 4 more.

What color gells do you typically use for shows. I've been struggling trying to find the perfect match. Most of my shows are with country, rock and oldies bands. Thanks for any help you can provide.

I use a simple red - teal - yellow - blue combination....Unfortunately I don't know the gel colors off hand.

I will try to figure it out...

It's all about the Congo Blue!

Magenta - Teal - Congo Blue - Green (with a fancy name I can't remember)