Newbie Question

Hey Bucwheat,

Welcome to the forums.
No experience with the behringer board but I despise the company. Personal reasons!

Here are my recommendations for consoles and dimmer packs:

Consoles:
DMX Operator 192

Magic 260

Dimmer Packs:
DP-415

DP-DMX20L

Hope this helps!
jthtiger

P.S. I own the DMX Operator 192 and have installed 2 DP-415's in my church.

I somewhat disagree with jthtiger.

I've had good results with Behringer, and you'd be amazed how many touring major events have racks with Behringer in it. I was. But this isn't about personal preferences. I could state my failures with the company too.

Personally, I've examined the Behringer lighting consoles, and honestly, don't do it. They just seem like "well, we need lighting controllers" instead of a fully spec'ed out and well thought out product.

If you want to go cheap, then go ADJ cheap and get their DMX Operator 192. Great item. I have it's predecesor and am really just finally growing into it and learning programming and I've had it since 2002. It's a great beginniner board, it's a great board to learn with, and it's a pretty killer bit of gear once you really learn to use it. Don't let the lack of faders worry you. You can get TONS done with that unit. I'd buy the 192 unit if I didn't have to replace $10K in stolen gear from an event last year.

As far as the dimmer pack suggestion, again, in total agreement with jthtiger, the DP-DMX20L is a great unit. Affordable, reliable, and SWITCHABLE. That switchable feature lets you choose whether it's a dimmer or swither/relay on a per channel basis. Dimming for ParCans, and switching for maybe your laser or other "high tech effects". Saves money going this way. I own 3 older-style DP-DMX20L's(pre selectable). Still great units and have been through hell and back and rocking hard!

Then again, maybe spend more, go DMX on ALL your fixtures and skip dimmer packs all together. Just a thought. BUt from the current pull you're talking, you're better off going the LED route because you're talking a HUGE draw of power for thoar 16 Par64's. Maybe find some other fixtures that can suffice or replace those Par64's. Also, might want to rig your lighting show to fit onto T-bars and stands so you can be in and out fast. Clubs aren't known to always be realistic with set-up allowances. Many times I've done shows and it's basically "soundcheck as we go", but if I can get a line check done ahead of time, I'm good.

Personally 4 up front and 12 in the back is a real mis-match. I try to even it out. The band is gonna look dark in the front as the stage pours light into the crowd off the stage and through the shadows of band members.

i agree with chris. ur talking a par 64 with given a 300 watt lamp each. so 300X16 is 4800 watts!! divide that by 120 volts which is what you will probably be using and ur gonna draw 40 amps just on those pars alone! ur lucky to get a good 20 amps dedicated to just lighting at pretty much anywhere u go. so think leds! for sure. and again i reccommend the op 192. any other question feel free to ask! sincerely,

Thanks for all the help. I am rather new to this lighting thing. So, let me see if I got this straight,If I use DMX fixtures, I do not need dimmer paks?This does not make sense..where does the fixture get its power? This DMX stuff is new to me.
I think I will order the DMX operator 192, if you guys think it will do everything I want it to. Years ago we used to run 48 Par 64's, We had 4 cans wired in series on Bars. We used 28 V Locomotive Headlamps for bulbs. This allowed a wattage of only 1000W per bar. I do like the LED Par 64 idea, though they are a bit pricey to go by 24 -48 of them. Thanks a lot for all the Help guys. I am sure I will have a tons of more questions for you.

Buckwheat, if you use all DMX fixtures you plug them al into a standard wal outlet and then you daisy chain them with DMX cables. they get their power from the wall and the DMX signal from your controller through the dmx cable to the lights. dimmer packs are kinda the same except it is all in one. but you still need DMX cables to link the packs together. understand? let me know if anything does not make sense or if you have more questions. sincerely,

Ahhh, I get it. So anything DMX capable can be pluged into any avaiable power source, then cabled to DMX controller via proper DMX cabling for control. Now, what about standard Non DMX Par 64's. How would I control them from The Dx operator 192. I wouls assume, they would have to be plugged into a dimmer pak and the dimmer paks cabled to the dmx controller. What controls them on the DMX operator 192? and how many could you run from it? I notice the DMX Pro for not much more $$$ has capabilities for standard par cans as well as intelligent lighting. What is the difference between it and the 192? I am sure I will probably end up buying one or the other. Thanks Again you've been a BIG help.

well there are a lot of differences between the two. but for the DMX op 192 to control the pars using a dimmer pack you would just turn on the relevant fixture button say u had pars on ch. 17 that would be fixture number two button. on the op pro there is just a dedicated side for pars. read up on the two and im sure you will learn the differences, sincerely,

The DMX OP 192 has 192 DMX channels. You already know that. The only difference between the two as far as par cans are concerned is the way you control them. You will need a dimmer pack for both consoles. The DMX operator 192 "blocks" the channels into 12 fixtures. This doesn't mean you can only have 12 lights. You can have 192 PAR cans if you want. The DMX OP PRO just has a handy 8 faders you can use to control 8 PAR cans. This also doesn't mean you can only have 8 cans. You can have 136 PAR cans if you want. The console doesn't know what kind of light it is running. It just sends out the data. Just because a console is an "intelligent" console doesn't mean it is intelligent. I still recommend the DMX Operator 192. It is very easy to use and holds more channels, scenes, and chases. Let me know if you need me to explain anything to you!

jthtiger

Lets' clarify since Bucwheat is still unclear on a few things.

(please excuse drifting, I have two tasks that I am monitoring)

Issue 1: DMX fixtures vs non-DMX fixtures:
A DMX fixture is a fixture that is DMX capable. In order words, it can be directly controlled via a DMX controller, such as the much recommended DMX Operator 192. Fixtures of this nature get plugged into the AC for power, and another cable goes in(typically a 3-pin 120-ohm XLR cable). Typically, most DMX fixtures have a DMX OUt to pass the signal along.

Non-DMX fixtures would be your basic Par Cans and most Hi-Tech effects listed on the ADJ site. You know they are not DMX fixtures because ADJ does not say they use DMX. This is where dimmer/relay packs(here-after referred to as dimmer packs) come in. You can assign a fixture to a channel on the DMX dimmer pack. This allows them to be turned on and off(in the case of hi-tech effects) or anything from off to on for things like Par Cans.

Issue 2: Controlling those ParCans:
Usin dimmer packs, you assign DMX channels(in a block of up to 4 typically) by programming your dimmer pack. It's easy.
Then, using your "scanner" button(each scanner button represending 16 DMX channels), you can do the math to see where you need to go to control you device. So, if you put your DMX dimmers starting at 33 and you have 4 of them,, and each taking up 4 unique channels eachm you'd need to go to Scanner 3, and then you can use the DMX Operator Faders to control them. Plug a Par64 into "channel 1" on the first programmed DMX dimmer pack(the one starting at address 33), and Fader 1 on Scanner 3 will control that.

Trust me, it makes more sense when you start doing it. It's not that complicated. You're just starting from nothing. You'll get into it and say "wow, that wasn't that hard.", and it's not.

Also, next time, don't "alternate" bulbs for your Par64's. They are UL approved for the type of bulbs explicitly recommended for them. Any alterations could result in a fire and a BIG lawsuit that you'd have to eat(bring lots of condiments, you're gonna eat it for millions if something happens). Also, consider your wiring in series: if one goes, they all go. Big risk. not wise.

Some re-cap: DMX fixture still draw operational power from AC. They are controlled via DMX. Non-DMX fixtures will need a dimmer pack(which also providers them with power) because the DMX dimmer pack is plugged into AC.

Not to parrot Jingles, but talking with him, I've gotten plenty of good ideas. Why not consider spending around the same money and going DMX LED Pro Par64's? Between the dimmer packs and Par64's, gels and the other stuff, I think you'll come out ahead. And you can throw in the DMX Operator 192.

Here's my numbers:
A Par64 costs say $65. Getting 16 of those = $1040. Ouch(sorry, tax joke).
Now, assuming you get 4 DP-DMX20L's, which I paid $180 for each, that's an additional: $720

$1760 total, EXCLUDING the DMX Operator 192, tax and shipping as applicable.

Now, I think you'd probably need LESS going with the LED Par Can Pro's because they do color mixing, so let's assume HALF the numbers,

First off, lose the dimmmer packs, they aren't needed now.

Second, I see them retailing for $300.
OK, well, $300X8=2400, which is what I'm budgettng for my lights. Put perhaps knowing the SIZE of stages you intend to play might help. You don't need TONS of you're hitting larger zones. But then again, with the higher price, you get lower current draw, decent output and no circuits popping. Seems win-win except for the financials portion. I'm sure for your back-fill, you could find other fixtures to satisfy the requirement. Just depends what you need to do and how your stage show is.

Other issues to think about:
A DP-DMX20L's maximum draw is 15 amps, with 10 amps per channel. Or, basically, 2 Par64's per channel(assuming 500-watts/bulb). You can easily see that going to be 4000-watts per dimmer, and your dimmer is restricted to 15-amps current pull, which is 1800 watts. What's gonna pop first? The circuit breaker or your dimmer's fuse? Only one way to find out, but I bet it's gonna be the circuit breaker at the venue or any thing you've front-ended your lights with(say, a Furma PL-Plus?).

Sorry, I always answer long. I try to be thorough.

Download some manuals for the products we're talking about. Things will fall into place quickly.

Great answer! If I may be so bold as to say go with our suggestions: LED's, DMX OP 192 and whatever other effects you need. We can definitely get them working for you. I'm so confident that one of us can help you out over the forums that if we can't, I will personally come up to you and help you out. I am 15 years old, in school, and not much free time, so I hope we can work it out! Both jingles and I own the Op. 192 and LED's and Chris has so much experience under his belt he can cover just about anything. what is it, 20+ years chris?

Like I said, that was bold. I hope that wasn't too braggadocios!

Again, if you need any clarification just let us know!

jthtiger

chris and jthtiger nice job!!
I agree with both. Buckwheat you've got a lot to consider here. Sincerely,

Well, I've been at it a while. I've got 25 years of pro audio under my belt at the age of 36. So, I've got some experience.

As I'm building my business, I have to take on all the issues that normally are reserved for stage managers, and other technicians. Before, I don't worry about power, I'm doing big events on other people's gear and everything is taken care of. Now I do it all myself, and now all that stuff I took for granted isn't there anymore.

My experience with clubs and small venues, despite having BIG gear, has been addressing electrical issues. I can't expect to have a pair of 3-phase 400-amp transformers I can just plug my power distro into. Why? 1: The places I go do don't have those BIG boxes, and 2: I don't have the right type of power distro.

I'm an audio guy, not a lighting guy. But, I have to do lights. I want MORE light on those stages, but the power isn't there. Talking with Jingles, it's obvious that using LED technology, I can finally achieve what I've been looking for. I can get more light, less power. I already have the DMX Operator and I'm just finally getting into programming. If I was doing more stuff, I would get the DMX Operator 192.

Bucwheet is jumping in headfirst. It's important that he is able to absorb and comprehend what is being presented. This serves multiple purposes. While some solutions may cost more, it is a wiser purchase. Regardless, it is important to NOT waste money. In my case, buying 32 Par38's is now a waste of money, but using smaller lights and MORE of them, I can spread stuff around a bit to get what I ultimately want. But now, those won't be trashed, but rather set aside to make way for LED Par 64 Pros. Was this a learning curve issue? Sort of. Was it a money issue? You bet. Was it a technology thing? Yup. ADJ didn't have want I wanted/needed at the time, and what they did have was too expensive. So, I had to spend to survive. Despite what now appears to be maybe not a wise previous purchase, it served it's purpose, so now it's time to buy again.

LEARN FROM THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS. You don't have the time to make them all yourself.

This forum serves many purposes. One is of course product support. What better way to support the product than from user experience and sharing? That ties into another purpose, which is education. While nobody taught me anything about DMX, knowing data comm and signal flow, it was really no big deal. To me, just another data protocol on a specified wire. I bought in, hooked it up, and started learning REAL fast. I went from nothing to 6 Par 38's, 2 Hi-tech effects and a DP-DMX20L with that DMX Operator and a 10-foot I-beam truss with T-bars. I had a week to learn it. I had more trouble assembling the truss than learning DMX.

Right now, I am in a "wait" mode, for reasons I don't care to share publically, but it is money related. I spend a LOT of time and effort and thought and MONEY to make my entire system as easy for my crew to set up and tear down. Why? Saving time means more time to troubleshoot, play, relax or sound check. All necessary tasks. Clubs and small venues don't let you load in at 6AM for an 8PM show. Minimize what you have to bring while maximizing your functions. That's what the Par 64 LED's will give me: 1 fixture replaces 3 Gel'd fixtures. Less to set-up. less time to set-up. Less to lug.

As I've said it before, many of us do this because we love what we're doing. And don't get me wrong, I love what I am doing. But, Rule #1 is always in full effect. Knowing rule #1 is essential. Rule #1 is "Get paid". I got to spend it to make it. If I don't get money, I don't do it. Well, there are exceptions. But, with ADJ and LED lighting, I see myself getting more work. Lights will get attention and then they'll hire me for sound too(since I don't do lights without sound). I work more, I'm happy. And then I take every cent and buy more gear. It's a vicious cycle!

Right now I'm drooling over a FOH/Monitor mix pair of Allen & Heath iLive's consoles. The smaller one so I can squeeze into smaller venues for FOH, and the big one for monitor mix. Of course like my ML5000, I can us the iLive for FOH an monitor mix from one console.

Bucwheat,

I am a newbie also with the lights but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. I did a lot of trials and error with lights, and came up with 8 P64 LED pro lights. They work incredibly well! I have done shows in small bars and they provide plenty of light, alot better than the non-pro version. I also added 2 LED Punch Pros and 1 Mega LED bar lights for the front. This combo works well as to evenly distribute light both front and back. I hope this may help ya!

Last thing, shop around for the best price, as I have been able to find all these lights considerbly less than advertised!

Ric

I keep hearing more and more good stuff about LED technology. I'm definatelly sold on it for certain things.

I think it has a way to go for touring applications(LED vs. traditional incandecent technology), but for those of us at the smaller levels, it seems to be a good solution.

What I see is:
Gee, I can set u lights(Par Cans), set up dimmer packs, run DMX...
Or I can just run the DMX LED Par 64 Pros and DMX. I spend money on short XLR cables and I'm good to go.

In Bucwheat's case, I'd suggest permamently mounting(for lack of a better term) his Par 64 LED"s onto T-bars to throw onto speaker stands. While he's at it, run DMX cabling between the fixtures. Reserve some longer cables for going between T-bars and it should go up fast. A small DMX splitter can split front from back to avoid a lond daisy change, but would be an "upgrade" later. Make a set of DMX terminators and you've got a fast set-up and tear down system. Let parts, light weight. Nifty!

I just joined the forum today and wanted to compliment you guys on how much useful knowledge you have posted here!

thank you! And welcome. If you ever have any questions yourself let us know. Once again welcome! Sincerely,

I am also a fairly new to running lights although I have experience with pro spots, intellibeams and trac spots. I just wanted to say THANK GOD that their are folks like you all on this forum to help guys like us that are spending money (sometimes that we don't have) to make our shows better and support our families. A breath of fresh air INDEED.
I am new to this and small time but have purchased a basic set up 2 vertigos and a ADJ quick scan system. I was going to get par 64's but thanks to this forum will be getting the dmx o192 and par 64 LED's thanks again and Good luck to you all.

Thanks laser! welcome to the forums. feel free to contribute aswell if you want. sincerely,