Hockey Pre Game Light Show

you also have to factor in the limitations of your lamp source, which is a halogen in the case of the dj spot 250's. So if your projecting a halogen 250 Watt lamp from 25 feet up it wont be that bright. If you go up to 50 feet that is a great decrease in lumens and i hope the place is dark if these are on.Cause at 50 feet your not gonna get much output. Consider perhaps a accu spot 250 or even 300?
Sincerely,

When you use a lense to magnify the image(say, a DLP projector using a short-throw lens), you lose a lot of light as the nature of how that works.

I'd step up and see if there is an Elation product that offers gobo projection with movement. I mention the Elation product mainly since you'll end up with a higher amount of light output, and you stay within the ADJ company. You want that higher output. It costs more, you need it.

I have to agree. A 250w halogen source from 25' up in the air, projecting a mostly red gobo (I assume red with a white wing) is not going to show very much. Even a 250w discharge might not be all that useful.


This is a shot of a show I did for a high school this past spring, Bye Bye Birdie. This shot has one DS575 stage left (right side of the shot) with a R55ish lavender in it. Stage right, the stage is lit with 4 575w Extended Life S4 19 degree lekos in R68. Now, if I did my math right, a 575w Extended Life 19 degree S4 leko is 177 FC at 32.8'. A 20 degree Design Spot 250 is 520 FC at 32.8'. So, if a DS250 was using R68, it would be a little brighter in that picture theoretically and slightly larger beam as one section (lights are split down the middle).

Now the red on Rosa (girl in the Red and black dress) is coming from a 15 degree irised down DS575. It punches through the blue, but if it was a DS250, you probably wouldn't see it at less then half the brightness. That red should be fairly similar to the red in your gobo I am sure. That is from roughly 15' away.

So as you can see, 250w discharge source might not be enough either. The one saving grace though is I assume they will be projected onto ice, which is white vs the colored stuff the lights in the picture above are projecting on. Therefor, I would recommend at least a 250w discharge source from a height of 25' if not a 300w or 575w. If looking for a larger beam, you will need a more powerful source. As you increase in size, intensity decreases in proportion to that size increase. Maybe get on 575w fixture to start vs 2 250w fixtures? See if you can get a demo from a dealer in your area too to make sure they will do what you need them to do as well.

My thoughts are that because this sounds more like a facilities type installation, the following thought occured to me:

Chances are this rink is used for more than just hockey. Probably skating practice and events, "skate nights" and other "like a roller skating rink" type applications. Except, one roller skating rink I have done some events at also uses the floor for basketball(with and without skates).

I'm thinking that there may be birthday parties and other type of events occuring at this rink.

Also, because of the location of these fixtures with that type of height, I'm thinking permanent install. With a gobo wheel with multiple applicable gobos in place on the gobo wheel for "most events", this also is very conducive to a permanent install application. Add to that either a super long DMX cable installed and terminated at a wall panel, to which anyone could attach any controller to run those fixtures(including MyDMX) or else use an Elation Wireless DMX solution and have that receiver mounted up there with the lights.

As far as fog machines go, what is the best place to mount those? No clue. I do think you're going to need an extremely high output unit to make this effect look decent, probably pointing straight down. I guess you could use a couple of relay or switching packs to run some fans if you want to help the fog spread out faster. I'm not sure if you're going for a one-off effect or not, and how others will want to use this. Plus, you are going to need to have access to the fog machine because it is going to run out of juice at some point in time.

I think the fog coming from the top would look cooler than say, from the sides of the rink. Then again, you could have two AV-type carts with power plugs on each side of the rink with an injection site so you can access the rink itself, and fire them off, either via some operators or remote DMX control Using wired DMX, you're spending way too much on cabling. Using a wireless solution, now you're spending an awful lot on receivers

Purchases like this seem to me like they should fall on the shoulders of facilities management/ownership. It's not practical(or is it) to have a tall enough ladder and mount/remove this stuff on a nightly basis and running a DMX cable would be a real pain(making the wireless DMX solution even more essential). Even with a genie lift(which would be a lot safer), I can't say with any sort of certainty how many venue facilities people would allow such a heavy vehicle onto the ice. The ice is over concrete, but still, there is the possibility that the ice could crush or crack and cause some safety issues to those who actually skate on the ice. Thena gain, this ice damage thing could just be paranoia on my part.

I think what is wanted to be accomplished is absolutely do-able, but not necessarily with the gear you've selected. I think some higher output fixtures, a big fog machine with high output and a wired or wireless DMX solution are the way to go. The multiple gobo for multiple occasions idea only helps sell the owners on the concept of them buying it themselves.

Thanks a lot for the replies. I've notified the people who are working with me on this project about a lot of the previously stated info. We've decided NOT to go with the custom gobo and just have red and white spots going around the arena. We've also decided to bump up to an accuspot 250 instead of dj spot.

I'd bump it a bit higher.

I do this one scene using my 150-watt Chauvet Q-Spot 150's, and while it's bright enough, I'm fairly sure my throw is a lot less than yours, but I have the benefit of a darkened room(but you may have the same advantage). I also have to use them for additional fill during other parts of the same event.

You get the advantage of fog, where I do not.

On the plus side, you're picking a fixture where you can replace the gobos. This is good. You can go ahead and get the fixtures, and when you're ready, you can have some custom gobos made and then simply(for lack of a better term) replace the gobo(s) you don't want and replace them with the new custom ones. This is much better than picking a fixture that can't really "grow" to where you want it later.

I'm sure custom gobos won't cost all that much. Considering if you choose your events wisely for the gobos, you can use that to market renting the facilities for other events.

I will also have the benefit of a darkened room. We will be turning the lights out.
To give you an idea of how high these gobo lights are gonna be, here's a quick video of our arena (sort of lol).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlqIgkdnA8U
The accuspots would be just under the lights you see in the video. I'm fairly confident 250 II's would get the job done

See if you can rent or borrow one for a trial. You can try this whenever. You'd know really fast.

SerraAva might have a better suggestion. I still think brighter would be better. Yes, your advantage of a darkened rink helps a lot but I think you're just not going to exactly get what you're looking for out of a 250.

Based on the video, it will be a close call. Are you looking to just hit the ice and only your team's half, the whole rink, or the whole arena? 250s will not do the whole arena and certainly not 2. The whole ice rink, that pushing the limit. Just your team's half, they will work but turning off the lights, particularly mercury/sodium vapors with a long warm up cycle, might be a problem because again, 2 250s won't light up the whole arena, especially if dropping a red color in them. I have issues with 700w arc lamps not giving me the punch I want with darker colors like reds, blues, and purples.

When I get back from my trip next week, I will take out the Vision 250s I have and put them next to the Power Spot 575s that I have. (Corporate is dead in the summer, so I get time to play/clean up/fix gear) Not 100% fair since one is moving mirror and other moving head, but you will get the idea. I will do a few different colors as well as distances of 12' (more ideal for 250s), 24' (up limit of 250s) and possibly longer, say like 30' or even 36' to see that at that distance (you will have throws much greater then 36' if trying to cover the arena) that 250s just don't cut it at all, even in white, and 575s start having issues. I will also use a 575w 19 degree Source Four leko for control, and so you can see that 250w halogen sources would have been a complete waste. I would use a 375w for closer comparison, put I don't stock any 375w HPLs (who does lol).

You also talked about increasing the size of the beam with optional 19 degree lenses I assume. Remember that as you increase in size, intensity falls off in proportion to that size increase. This effectively makes the lights even less powerful at longer distances.

Given the choice, which technology is typically brighter:

Moving mirror or moving head?

Or is this a wash? Both use a lens anyways.

I'm assuming moving head only because there is less stuff between the light and the eventual target. There has to be some amount of loss using a mirror, especially at these levels. WE're not talking about a Hubbel space telescope mirror that is the heart of the unit type reflectivity.

Moving Head is brighter. Light is lost when the beam is bounced off the mirror vs just shooting out the lens. Granted, optics play a bigger role. The Mac 550 and its 400w lamp can keep up with poorer optic quality lights with 575w lamps. The Mac 500 it replaced had a 575w lamp but the Mac 550 is brighter then it side by side.

Moving mirror is better in some spots because they are quicker. Basic physics, less mass to move means it can accelerate quicker. Moving mirror's motors also don't have to be as large, so they are physically lighter and smaller as well generally.

Mirrors are going the way of the dinosaur now though, because moving heads cover a far greater range which is what most big time designers are looking for now. Get the most out of each light. Cutting your movement to about a 1/3 quicker movement speed is not something many are will to sacrifice.

I can totally see your point about moving mass and speed issues. We're talking basic physics there.

Today, motors are becoming more powerful and quicker(and in some cases smaller). Of course, then we have to talk about compliance issues so when you're whipping that head around and you hit that mark it doesn't jar itself coming to a screeching halt. Some moving heads are relatively fast. Of course, they are fairly lightweight as well. My Chauvet Q-Spot 150's, as much as I may dislike certain aspects of them, move MORE THAN fast enough to suit me. But again, we're talkng a fairly lightweight fixture. Seems most of the weight is the base to keep it in place.

I personally can't see myself sacrificing where I can put the beam of light using a moving head over the speed and placement limitations of a mirror. I can also get a higher range of movement out of a moving head. But if I just needed to aim stuff say out into a dance floor, a mirror fixture could work fine for me.

Serra i would love to the see the visions. they were always my favortie scanner form elation and are now discontinued. Sadly i have never gotten to play with one, Also i heard of talk of increasing the beam angle for a accu 250? That wont work mind you will also void any warranty.

Sincerely,

On the page for the Accu Spot 250 II, it says you can order 19 degree lenses separate with them. Factory options/parts/accessories wouldn't void the warranty I would hope.

"Optional 19° beam angle: create larger gobo pattern on dance floors for low ceiling installations - sold separately "

With regards to the Vision 250s, I like them a whole lot more then Trackspots. I hate Trackspots with a passion. They are work horses, but I always have issues with them. I had to have one of my guys stand by with a mic stand to literally hit the DMX connection on the one Trackspot because it would cut out intermittently and cause loss of data down the chain. I don't think I will ever get rid of the 250s now since they stopped making them. I use moving mirror a lot for prom parties/DJ parties. The faster speed works wonders when combined with some moving heads. And the target is really only the dance floor.

Oh I forgot about the option for 19 degree. i apologize. And no factory wont void any warranty.

Sincerely,

When your target is a dance floor, you can get away with a lot.

I have my Electra, Reflex, Barrel Flex and Rover II, which are all mirror-type High-tech FX. That seems to make the dancers happy. Needs fog though and I rarely run fog.

We're looking for the whole rink to be lit up... In a way. What we want is basically for the lights to scan the ice and crowd, similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq-_NepYnwE

Not sure what kind of lights are being used, but we're looking for that kind of brightness.

And our sulpher lights take 4 mins to turn back on, so by the time the announcer announces starting lineups and we do the national anthem and whatnot, they would be on by the time the game starts

Those are definately moving heads. Higher costs for sure, but you can see you can get a brighter beam.

It's worth the costs, in my opinion. You might have to jump to Elation lighting, which might be a good investment.

By the way, those videos are great examples and I feel are really helping drive answers for you.

Unfortunately we have a budget of no more than $5,000. I happened to stumble apon a 4-pack of accu spot 300's for $4,500. I'm tempted to go with those. Just gotta find some funding haha.

Judging by color temperature (hard to do with YouTube videos), those are most certainly NOT 250w or even 300w arc sources. Also note at about 1:36 in the video the one light pans across the towards the camera and the beam can clearly be seen through haze while the rink is lit by some LED fixtures of some sort. A 250w source won't cut haze like that at that angle and over that distance. I can't quite tell what type of fixtures they are, but I can tell they are higher end then AMDJ from the size/build of them. Look like Design Spots or Macs.

Why not try for some Power Spot 575s. They are discontinued now, but should be able to find a pair for under 5 grand. Might also try a pair of Accu Spot 575s. Again, should be able to find a pair for under 5 grand (not sure on your tax status either, sales tax is quite a bit when talking large amounts of money). Also keep in mind that an Accu Spot 300 doesn't have a 300w lamp in it, just has more features then an Accu Spot 250.

You might also try something like 1 575w fixture and a few 250w fixtures. Put the 575w center ice and use it as the focal point with 250s around it. If you get a few more bucks, you could even do a 575w with 4 250s around it in the corners of the ice. I would just hate to see you buy a bunch of 250s and they don't work out like you need them to. I personally would shoot for 575s. You can always add more later vs spending money on a product that doesn't work like you need it. Hopefully you can wait till some time next week when I shoot out a Vision 250 vs a Power Spot 575 IE vs 19 degree 575w S4 Leko. This will give you a better idea intensity wise what you are looking at.

It sounds to me like this place needs to have a professional come in and do some consulting because it doesn't seem like they are going to be able to realize their objectives with their budget.

In my case, since I don't deal with lighting, I get do deal with audio. As the guy who is gonna not only buy but use it as well, I know what I am going to have to spend to make it happen.

Likewise with lights, you have someone like SerraAva who is most likely doing the entire evaluation and determination process. Not sure if he's doing the actual purchasing or not, but he's definately doing a lot of the using.

Hey, at least you have budgetting. I got a call for a show that expected full lights, big console and all the goodies for $200. I couldn't take the job. I would have lost just on the drive down putting diesel in my truck.

I think your powers that be are not entirely clued in but at least they realize they are going to have to spend some serious bucks, just they don't know exactly yet.

Buy smart and buy stuff that you can move around rather than replace as you get additional funding down the line. SerraAva is right in those regards, and it's the same type of ideal I strive for: Smart purchases now prevent wasting of money then, now or in the future. Sure, eventually you'll have to replace them but that's a totally different discussion that doesn't apply here.

Okay, here are the photos. This is from the left of the photo to the right, a PS 575 IE freshly lamped, a Vision 250 with about 1,000 hours on it, and an extended life 575w 19 degree S4 leko. The first batch of shots are from 10' out.




Now, on the white, the PS is the brightest and the 250 is not as bright as the S4 leko looks 'whiter'. In the red, the S4 catches up to the PS, which is to be expected since it has a much lower color temperate. The leko is using R27. The Vision looks orange, because it is indeed orange and not a red like the other two. Closest color that matched in its color wheel. The blues, S4 in R80, the Vision catches up to the S4 because of its higher color temperature. The PS pulls way ahead again, thanks to color temperature.


This is white from 24' out. As can clearly be seen, the Vision fades away to almost nothing next to the S4 and the PS.


This is white with PS on the left and Vision on the right. Again, Vision at this distance just can't keep up at all.


This is Vision on the left and S4 on the right. Keep in mind, the 575 in the S4 is 130% brighter then the lamp in the DJ Spot. So the DJ would have been not as bright as the Vision at this point.



The last two images are PS on the left and Vision on the right. Again, the 250 just doesn't have enough power at this distance.


Hopefully now you can see that 250s really aren't going to be useful in your application, especially when it comes to the red. If anyone would like to see something else, let me know before 5:30 PM eastern time. I will be happy to run back out into the warehouse and snap some more shots.

video demo of the vision Also forgive my ignorance(my knowledge on lights is really limited to ADJ elation not a whole lot more) but i have never seen what a S4 leko looks like. So maybe some pics of that fixture? Thanks.

Sincerely,

Lol, sorry, don't do videos. I leave that for my camera guys. I can send you a link of a simple little video thing I did a while back though.


An ETC Source Four Leko in all its glory, lol.


The cap or base of the fixture.


Looking down the back of the barrel where the cap sits.


Looking down the other end of the barrel back towards where the lamp sits. It actually pops through the hole in the middle, so the mirror sorounds the whole lamp and throws pretty much every bit of light down the barrel. One of the reasons for its great punch.


The lens tube. (some people call it the barrel when in fact it actually isn't, don't worry I do it too lol) One of the great parts about the S4 leko is the lens tubes are interchangable, making it easy to go from a 5 degree all the way up to a 90 degree.

I find shoot-outs like this to be some of the better was to make a point about what is and what isn't working. No guesswork, it comes right ot.

Dean's issue regarding the 64 LED Pros was also highly usable for the same reasons.

thanks a lot for those pictures. really helped.

it seems we may have a pretty good shot at funding, as we've struck the interest of a few large-ish companies.

so not putting price into your mind, what moving head fixture do you think would be best? it seems even a 575Watt fixture wouldnt be strong enough. i'm thinking double that. at least. if we were to get 2 moving head fixtures that can pump out 1,200W minimum, do you think that would be okay?

edit: I have been informed its a 10-15 thousand dollar budget for lights possibly

edit edit (sorry im thinking lots lol): on second thought, that 575 doesnt look THAT bad in red at 24 feet if you were to turn off the s4 maybe... gaahhh decisions. we would also settle for just white lights if need be. we're also getting a 7x10 foot led screen so its not like the lights will be the main event. it might work okay if we got four 575s and just used the white spots in them.

Power spot 700 II CMY from Elation. Hands down.

Read this: http://www.elationlighting.com...ssDetail.aspx?ID=153

Pics are here: http://www.elationlighting.com...etail.aspx?MainId=60

Serra don't you have experience with the 700's? Chime in if so.
Sincerely,

Yes, I do. The 700s will be even better, but two will eat through your whole budget however. With 10-15k to play with, you could get four 575 watt fixtures depending on type. 1200w fixtures are pretty much out of your price range completely minus the DS1200, see below. They also have another set of problems, like just about all of them need 208v vs 120v.

If you really want to bump up in power, I would go with the Design Spot 1200. they run about the same cost as a PS700 CMY, but brighter lamp and more features. Only issue is they need 208v to work. (Don't know why Elation didn't make them able to work on 120v like the 2k line can).

Its a tough call. The 575s will work, especially if you are talking about turning the lights off. In the shots above, I had a roll up door opened behind me. So it wasn't pitch black in the room. 700s or 1200s would be better though. 1200s are pretty much the brightest you can get right now in a normal size moving head. There are a few 1500w fixtures out there, but not many. You might also want to look into beam fixtures. The Design Beam 300 puts out 7 times light then a DS1200, but the size of the light is much smaller. Great for long distance stuff and added punch. Maybe a system like two DB300s and two DS575s. The 300s can take care of the stands and the 575s can take care of the rink.

I did a mini review on the DS575s. I love those things big time. Zoom, frost, two rotating gobo wheels, CMY, animation wheel. You just can't beat them at there price point. They have more features then a Mac 700 and cost less then half as much. The Mac 575 doesn't have near the features and costs twice as much. Let me know if you want to see some shots of a DS575. Great fixture.

I am not sure of the 208 voltage issue is an absolute problem.

A qualified electrician should be able to run that type of voltage and wiring up to and within code safety specs to the locations needed. The bigger issue is that if they go with the Design Spot 1200, would budget also allow the proper electrical work to be done? I think that would be a concern.

The issue is moot for "can it be done". The issue is really "If we go with the Design Spot 1200's, would we also be able to afford for the electrical work to be done".

Also, I am assuming that we're allowed to run 208v runs/circuits where needed.

A big show I was doing, the lighting company was showing off their new power distroy and dimmre packs. They had some socapex connections at 220 and some at 120, so they could run more variety of lights. Of course, they are pulling raw power off the building access transformers installed for events, and they are using their power converter/distro to provide the type of circuits they needed.

So, I think it could theoretically be done safely. However, I can not provide that information. A qualified electrician is the onl one who can answer that question, as well as maybe some government board to ensure they will allow that too so you don't waste time pulling a permit to get the work done. In fact, you may need to pull a permit anyways to get this job done regardless of the voltage being delivered where.

Just be safe about it.

Kind of a random thought: Would those Galaxian lasers be seen decently if we got a crap load of them (5 to 6). I was watching a video about them and thought those would be really unique, seeing as our main team color is red and stuff. Having them sound active would be wicked

Lasers work best in the dark with the room hazed out. An ice arena would take some time to haze out. When I was still doing work for IATSE, they would set a few of DF-50s and start them hours before the show started to get the room hazed out. Now I am sure you arena isn't as large as say the Wachovia Center here in Philly, but a few DF-50s a few hours to haze the place is still a lot.

The other issue with lasers is they can obviously be hazardous to eye health and can cause damage and/or blindness. You would have to take time to carefully aim them so as to make sure no one can look into them. Otherwise you are asking for a lawsuit.

It is a cool idea though, especially if the rink is rented out for parties and what not. Keep on thinking though, and we will keep helping if we can.

wings i agree with serra about the lasers. unless you pint them up towards the roof or down on the ice only. Why not post some pics of this rink so we may see whats all in there. if you havent done so yet that is.
Sincerely,

Here's a video I took a short while back... I panned back and forth around the arena.

http://s46.photobucket.com/alb...¤t=CPPLACE.flv

And some pictures:
http://s46.photobucket.com/alb...ent%20Point%20Place/

oh ok nice. Ya since the seats go all the way up to almost the top and considering the galaxian lasers all spread beams out all over the place you would need to point them on to the ice but then you have to worry about it reflecting off the ice.
Sincerely,

When I was doing a concert for ZZ Top in a 2000-seater venue, those boys had that place PACKED with fog super fast at the end of their show. We're talking DENSE thick fog. But it did clear fast, which was rather nice. Something like after 30 seconds you could see again mostly, and after about 2 minutes it was just haze.

Whatever the hell they used would be good for flooding the area fast with fog, or multiple smaller fog machines(ZZ Top used at least 2 units) placed in zones with nice high output BUT have remove control.

The problem with installed fog machines or hazers for that matter is the fact that you've got to get up there to refill them. Of course, you're gong to have to get up there to change bulbs from time to time too.

Here's a thought: Athletes don't like fog or haze, at least not where they play. It can play with their vision a little bit.

I totally hear what Jingles is saying about having to "haze up" the place to get ready for this. It's true, you have to run those things for a while, but it also lingers a bit so you'll want to crank any fans or climate control after your intro stuff to clear it out..

Now, in regards to your ice itself, you are painting one of the lower layers before laying the ice on thick, right? You shouldn't have to worry about the ice reflecting much and it should look halfway decent.

But right now there's too much lack of decision and vision. I think you need to start to go in a definitive direction. Think "what do we want to do now vs in a while(year or longer)" and make purchases that go towards that goal.