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Hey Guys,

So I was at a Homecoming dance last night (i wasn't DJ'ing) yet I was checkin out the lights, and they had a Line Dancer/Vertigo, Sunray II, Strobe and a Halogen worklight (one of these mounted on 5ft of truss. I was quite suprised that someone would use a halogen work light for something like this, and they used it for wash and strobing. Is it safe? It certainly can't be recommended or professional. I think what bothered me the most was how it was yellow, and way too bright.

Another thing I might add(even tho this is the lighting category) is that they didnt elevate their main speakers at all. With a crowd of 1000+ you couldn't make out any of the song except for the bass from the back of the room.

Yet somehow they are one of the best in the area?
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In my region in the main "niche" I work in, the best is a relative term. Best means "cheap" and "****py". You get two dorks with a cheap mixer, ****py amps and they just start throwing speakers around everywhere, and that's considered "good". Granted, larger speakers than I have, but I power mine properly. Then they get to fight with phasing, comb filtering and other acoustical nightmares, including howling feedback all night long, and this is what is considered the "best". Let's not forget blown drivers and rolled off top-end to help with feedback problems. Their big speakers sit on the stage or on chair or a table and basically is putting out loud ****.

Now, take mine, I'm running a 3K-watt PA that will outperform a 5K-watt PA(I'm all active, plus a seasoned engineer), and I run my system louder and longer than they do with virtually NO feedback, yet I'm not getting the jobs. I raise my tops to keep projection.

Then we go onto lights. One the groups advertising a professional lighting system(available upon request) is a smoke machine and two small figures. Another sytstem are 2 1-foot triangle trusses with 4 Par 64's each running a program from a dimmer or relay pack, most likely relay pack, and that's their lighting. Then there's mine, with 16 par 38's(soon to be 20-24), 1 15-foot I-beam truss, 2-3 10-foot i-beam trusses, 2 T-stands(more T's coming soon, expect my call, sales!), Sunray III, Vertigo, Mystic, Mace II(coming soon!), Barrel Flex, Reflex II, Rover, Electra, 2 pin-spots, 8" mirror ball with motor and mount, a buttload of O-clamps, 3 DP-DMX20L's, 2 PP-DMX20L's, an Aviator SP-8 dimmer pack(it's not a relay), Triloy, DoubleTwist, 2 FogStorm F700's, Big Shot Strobe and a DMX Operator, and yet, apparently mine isn't good enough. I'm always adding, and I'm thinking about 8 larger Par can lights, not sure which yet, maybe 64's, but I'm thinking at the distance I would use them, might be Par 56's or 46's. Would like to see a showroom so I can see the difference. ADJ going to be at AES in SF later this month? My main goal is to shmooze a big A&H console.

I and my crew give nothing less than 100% all the time and we consistently out perform other sound companies(read: dorks with crud and a pick-up truck). Heck, last BIG event, we had the other room shut down since we were so loud, and they had a "larger" PA system. They showed off their lights, and yet people were wandering over to our event and checking out our lights and sound.

Whatever. There's no figuring out people.

At my event last night, I just had 1500-watts of PA, 4 gel'ed Par 38's, Sunray III and Vertigo on a Crank-2 trussing system. Idiots had those 500 watt halogens and were complaining that I turned them off, but I needed the voltage.

I know this will be censored, but any brand that makes a power unit with a voltage monitor, such as Furman, should be used in ANY system. There's too much bad power these days. But I also survey with a volt metere as well, which can be dangerous if not used correctly.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ.RO:
[qb]
Yet somehow they are one of the best in the area? [/qb]
maybe thats just it..... they are one of the best because people love what they do..... i've heard many of the guys on this board say that its not the equipment that matters... its how u use it to entertain the people...... and isnt entertaining suppose to be ONE of the main reasons why we all do this??....ok, take dj skilz as an example, i bet if u give him a cheap $99 turntable..... he'll throw down some stuff that many other people cant do with a $600 turntable..... u see where im gettin at???..... remember...... a good dj with a cheap system will still be a good dj..... and a krappie dj with a top of the line system will still be a krappie dj....

<= and this is not an attack on anyone....im just adding another point of view to the discussion.
There is more to Djing than just being "good" at it...so mabey a "good" dj could work wonderes with a ****py system...but what if they have a problem with it because it is ****py...they would be shiot out of luck, obviously if this "goog" dj was too cheap to buy decent equipment, then they must not care enough to even learn how to use it properly...
DJ Borris
quote:
Originally posted by borris123:
[qb] There is more to Djing than just being "good" at it...so mabey a "good" dj could work wonderes with a ****py system but what if they have a problem with it because it is ****py...they would be shiot out of luck, [/qb]
hhmm let me see.... if these guys had a problem with the work light and for some reason turned it off or it died on them... then i think DJ.RO wouldnt have been bothered by the light dont u think???

quote:
Originally posted by DJ.RO:
[qb]
I was quite suprised that someone would use a halogen work light for something like this....
I think what bothered me the most was how it was yellow, and way too bright. [/qb]
chris, fobster, borris good points all of you.

Yes, I agree wit both fobs and borris. the DJ him/herself will perform mostly the same with top of the line equipment, and a not so good setup. But, there are limits as to what these
"****py" systems can do...

BTW, I just booked a gig at the same school for next month, then they can see what real DJ lights and sound are supposed to be. Big Grin
I'm not a DJ, don't want to be a DJ and NEVER will be a DJ. I'm an audio professional, and it's not my job to spin discs. Granted, I do that from time to time, but I don't chatter endlessly like most of the lame-o's in my area do. But enough dissing, it's not my point.

Now, some background:
As an audio professional, I've done stuff for major motion pictures, theater, stage, radio, television(national and local), recorded albums and so on and so forth. I've had to work all over the place with all sorts of stuff. I've managed to do amazing stuff with some gear that was basically ready for the trash heap.(some things fell apart after sessions) Skills account for quite a bit, but there's a point that one must start spending money because their skills mandate it.

Now, compare my system with others around here. There are people with a garbage console(and barely know how to use it) with some beat-up speakers(many with blown drivers) and some cheap sub-standard and underpowered amplifiers. Yes, they can get a signal through and make it loud, but there's more to it than that. OK, they want to have a bigger system, so they add speakers around the room, sometimes paralleled off the "front mains", and since they know nothing of acoustic physics, they end up with LESS sound, despite using more power. Plus, they use cheap wireless solutions that won't hold up under anything outside of a home environment, so drop-outs are common as well as total losses of signal. So, bad skills and junk=best in my area, apparently.

I refuse to lower myself. If these people have decided that lameness is quality, then so be it for them to hire someone else and make their event a disaster. That's not my problem.

A good engineer such as myself can do wonderful things with less than optimal gear. There is also a limit to how much of a miracle one can pull out of one's rectum in such a scenario though. I'm close to taking the next step with a large format analog console(don't trust digital yet, AES might change that) and even better quality mains. Lighting will remain ADJ, since for the events I do, I don't need to step up to the Elation products, I mainly need more audio inputs and mixing surface. 56 inputs via a A&H ML5000 will do quite nicely unless I can bogart a big Midas H3 or H4, but that's not gonna happen although I can always hope.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Pickett:
[qb] There is also a limit to how much of a miracle one can pull out of one's rectum in such a scenario though. [/qb]
Amen to that!
And wow man it sounds like u got a great company running. thats awsome. Where you are is where i want to be in 15-20 mabey 30 years down the road. I am just starting to breach into live sound and i am loving it much more than i ever loved djing. i don't know why...it just seems to be my field.
DJ Borris
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Pickett:
[qb]
so they add speakers around the room, sometimes paralleled off the "front mains", and since they know nothing of acoustic physics, they end up with LESS sound, despite using more power. [/qb]
hey thats pretty interesting.... would u mind explaining a bit more on this man??... i mean, i know having a speaker out of phase will make it sound less but is this something other than that??......

and by the way, interesting background and nice website..

my background: caraudio/interior , dj fenatic, and an audio pro to be (( still studying)) Big Grin Big Grin
Note:
One is ALWAYS a student of pro audio.

And thanks to all for the visits.

It's hard to explain since I'm not a scientist. Most of these issues are going to pertain to most cabinets on the market, active or passive, with the possible exception to arrayable cabinets, especially line arrays.

The main concern is being aware of the pattern that your cabinet throws it's sound. For the most part, you shouldn't put two cabinents side by side straight out, they needed to be splayed/angled away from each other so the coverage doesn't overlap. Despite best efforts though, you'll always get some overlap, it's not like the sound waves are going to stay within that field.

When cabinets are not splayed properly, the audio coming out will overlap with that of the other cabinet, and as a result, micro=shifts in timing can cause specific frequencies(variable, dependent on timing, placement, distance) may coincide in a bad way: as in specific frequencies meeting each other out of phase and cancelling each other out, more or less. This won't happen at all frequencies and all distances and will vary all over the place, so what may be out of phase in one zone might be fine in another. This cancellation will rob power from your system as you crank it more and more but don't net much returns.

OK, now, envision a stage, say maybe 8-feet deep, 20-feet wide. I think this is the main room I am thinking of where I see this stupidity occur. The room is WIDE, no deep.

Scenario 1:
So, at the front corners of the stage are a double 18 enclosure, and stacked on that is a splayed OUT 2-way 15" passive, and splayed IN is a 2-way 12" passive. Already there are three issues before I go further. Issue 1: Mixing and matching tops, even when properly splayed, is going to result in inconsistencies and therefore less output overall due to different frequency responses and hence cancellation due to comb filtering. In practice it seems smart, but in application, stupid.
Issue 2: With the tops so low, it's getting absorbed by the audience and NOT projecting. Then again, the double 18's wide are not maximizing their potential either, but I'll let those idiots figure that out.
Issue 3: Wait, that was the sub issue.
Issue 4: Unknown to you, but the rig is underpowered and just between you and me, they have blown tweeters. Better to have power in reserve. But alas, they don't know how to use their gear effectively either, so what difference does it make?

Scenario 2:
Same stage and room.
3-way speaker on each corner, maybe a sub(usually no) as well. Tower on stage, sub on floor near tower. 10-feet BESIDE the stage and against the back wall is another SMALLER tower speaker of ALSO a different brand.
Again, same 4 issues apply. This one is much worse, a the smaller towers are parallelled off the ones off the stage corner, but most importantly, is the location. There is a delay involved and the speaker is not on the same plane and by defacto the sound will NOT arrive in phase even if the delay were non-existant. The outward and back placement will guarantee problems.

Scenario 3: And this is my favorite idiot one:
Speakers in all 4 corners of the room. While you can now have in theory a lower overall volume level since you're not projecting from a single point of origination(say, the stage), now you have created an environment where you're guaranteeing lulls in the off-axis, which is now 9 zones: center, and middles between each speaker as well as directly on axis due to the overlaps. In one particular room, there are more zones due to the overlaps and delays in this scenario.
Tied to the above, had to endure an event done this way. Virtually NO sound and it's already feeding back. Couple that with bad food and it was an unplesaant experience. Wasn't my system.

I've also been told HOW to operate my system "Because that's how everyone else does it". They wanted speakers spread out everywhere. I gave them 2 choices: My way or I turn around and go home and you giveup not only your desposit but ALSO your payment for the whole event since it was less than 24 hours notice. Needless to say, they wisely chose to stay the hell out of my way. The audience was blown away, the happy couple was impressed, and not only did we get paid in full, but we got a big tip as well.

These issues become MORE important when dealing with a live act since it's not as "controllable" as a DJ_style event. Feedback becomes more of an issue(instead of less as they would think). Performer movement plays into this as well. Now gain structure and experience and proper powering and usage of the PA becomes essential. It's better, especially with a band, to have all your mains pointing in the same direction in one plane.

If my PA didn't sound good, then what difference will my lights make? My competition covers up their lack of audio skills with, well, a lack of lights as well. But their concept is "eye candy corrects all ails", and nothing can be further from the truth. My priority is sound, lights are merely a dressing in my opinion. ADJ is definately going to get more of my money as I need more lights. I could go with another brand and really, get all the same stuff just with different names on it. Why bother? I started with ADJ and will stick with them, makes it easier to deal with support issues: one call can potentially take care of ALL my problems.

Lights and sound are two totally different disciplines. One can do both extremely well and be very proficient in both. In my case, I am choosing to focus on the audio, while I am letting my wife and a brother in law perfect lighting although I drive the lighting issues as well. Since I'm doing rather complicated events now, my simplistic lighting has gotten capable of doing some neat things. Also, my events are getting more lighting-intensive so I'm having to move into intels as movers, which is fine. I'm letting my gigs dictate evolution.

I am co-owner of a pro wrestling promotion, so I am also doing lighting design as well as audio. I work in with an audio/video production facility. I own my own mobile PA company, which is turning into a full production company for small events.
Sure, no problem.

We're all here to learn stuff, get help and improve our skills. I've learned on some lighting design stuff, but my expertise is audio, so I'm better equipped to share my knowledge in that area.

Besides, ADJ also sells audio gear. I wouldn't touch it, but that's not the point or an issue.
As a blinder effect, even with a color changer, that might be cool,. In my opinion, while the lights are sitting there exposed and not used, it is going to look very cheezy/cheap.

My clients, however bottom-feeder they are, I have high expectations and they're just going to have to leaarn to deal with a "next level" company doing their events. They will learn the difference between trash and the real deal, whether they like it or not!
chris, I know the very basics of audio setups, my passion is in lighting. I've heavily involved in many different lighting applications and I too have come in contact with scenarios such as yourself in regards to clients who are impressed by "pro's" who have extremely old and barely functioning lighting and yet i've come in with a lighting rig that is state of the art and that clearly blows them out of the water, yet they still rather opt with the other guy simply due to the fact that he's "cheap". People are cheap and want to pay for nothing especially when it comes to lighting. It is often overlooked as to what a lighting system can really do. But I completely understand your frustration as i've encounted similar scenarios myself.

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