Would it work to set an Aggressor Tri LED in sound mode and turn it on and off with a DP-415 (such that it operates in sound mode each time the DP-415 sends it power)?
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That should work however some of these fixtures go through a self check mode which can take about 30 seconds before it outputs light. so keep that in mind. I believe we did a similar method at mobile beat for a lot of our led effects.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
If the self-check mode is more than a few seconds, I don't think that would be a practical fixture to put on a dimmer pack for control. But if this is more of a high-tech FX(doesn't even us DMX) fixture, I can't see how the self-check would take very long.
But the Aggressor Tri LED isn't a DMX fixture, so I can't see the self-check taking that long. I would think it would be really quick since I would expect ADJ to assume you might want to be able to turn it on and off even if you can run it all night.
Also, since you're using the DP-415, please take the time to set the channel you want to use(or channels) to switching mode. It appears DIP switch 10 controls this. It's an all or nothing deal. You'd have to go do a DP-DMX20L for channel selectable switching/dimming. Look at it this way though, you can use 4 different high-tech FX lights off this dimmer. Seems to me, depending on what you want to run, you're well on your way!
About the only thing I can suggest would be to ses if the store has one of these on display. See how long it takes from power on to being usable and see if you're happy with that time.
You are planning to use a DMX controller of some sort, right?
But the Aggressor Tri LED isn't a DMX fixture, so I can't see the self-check taking that long. I would think it would be really quick since I would expect ADJ to assume you might want to be able to turn it on and off even if you can run it all night.
Also, since you're using the DP-415, please take the time to set the channel you want to use(or channels) to switching mode. It appears DIP switch 10 controls this. It's an all or nothing deal. You'd have to go do a DP-DMX20L for channel selectable switching/dimming. Look at it this way though, you can use 4 different high-tech FX lights off this dimmer. Seems to me, depending on what you want to run, you're well on your way!
About the only thing I can suggest would be to ses if the store has one of these on display. See how long it takes from power on to being usable and see if you're happy with that time.
You are planning to use a DMX controller of some sort, right?
Chris,
Thanks for the tips, especially the one about setting the DP-415 to "switching mode." I wasn't aware of that feature.
I'm using a Magic 260. I thought I'd use the four auxiliary buttons on it so I can choose to add some pizzaz from effect lights any time I want, no matter what scene or show happens to be running at the time. Please let me know if I'm overlooking something here.
My thinking is that if I went with a TRI Phase, I'd have more control, but I would have to duplicate scenes, one set with the effect lights going and the other half with them off. That would be harder to deal with at a live event if, for example, I wanted the effects to come on during a solo, but otherwise have them off.
Thanks again for the help.
Hobson
Thanks for the tips, especially the one about setting the DP-415 to "switching mode." I wasn't aware of that feature.
I'm using a Magic 260. I thought I'd use the four auxiliary buttons on it so I can choose to add some pizzaz from effect lights any time I want, no matter what scene or show happens to be running at the time. Please let me know if I'm overlooking something here.
My thinking is that if I went with a TRI Phase, I'd have more control, but I would have to duplicate scenes, one set with the effect lights going and the other half with them off. That would be harder to deal with at a live event if, for example, I wanted the effects to come on during a solo, but otherwise have them off.
Thanks again for the help.
Hobson
With a lack of knowledge on my behalf on the Macic 260, I can't totally answer your question with any sort of authority, but I think you can take my answer and apply it.
In your case, control is relative to what you want and how you need to best go about it.
First, I think that if you went with the TriPhase, you'd have more control from the standpoint of it's a DMX fixture and you definately can directly control it. But, keep this in mind for your applications. Please do check out the DMX traits in the manuals before you consider your purchase. You've mentioned quite a few times a need for sound-active feature, and I would assume you'd want a sound active option available while in DMX mode as well. In my opinion, while I don't know how often I would necessarily use a sound active function while in DMX mode, it's something I would like to have available. In my case, during a part of the big show I work on, I throw several of my LED lights into a sound active mode on a couple of scenes.
Reading the Tri Phase Manual, I can see it does not support sound active function in DMX mode. Watching the video, it's a neat fixture, I can see some nice uses for such a fixture in my stuff, including my big show. But right now I have to limit myself!(money)
I don't know what the aux buttons on the Magic 260 are truly capable of. I would think that if you are using a DMX LED fixture, and depending on the fixture, you may need 2 or more channels active to get an LED going. Most examples would be a dimmer channel and then at least one other channel, in your case, perhaps the channel where you can go into macro or sound active mode. I fail to see at the moment if the aux buttons are going to serve your needs properly.
The other option, I suppose, is to do as you suggest, which would be to either halve your scenes to make solo scene, or sacrifice one scene to a solo. I don't like the idea of you losing half your scenes just to accomodate one fixture. You definately don't want this fixture one on a switcher pack channel mainly because I think the Tri Phase would take at least 3 seconds to self-check and come up. Then you'd have your "solo" scene, and I think we're both in agreement that a static solo scene is not desired. I won't comment about what would be harder to control live, each operator is different. I think if things are well labelled and the operator has good familiarity, it shouldn't be a big deal.
It just seems that the Magic 260 has some shortcomings for some of your ideas. I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I just am getting the impression that this isn't the right console for you. Now, you can get around some of this with the following ideas:
You can get a second controller, such as, say, a DMX Operator. That is a scene-based controller and is rack mountable. You can program up to 240 scenes and 6 chases(made up of up to 240 steps, each step is a scene). You can directly call any scene, such as controlling these DMX FX like the Tri Phase. Now, couple this with a DMX combiner and collapse both your Magic 260 and the DMX Operator into one DMX signal.
I also don't think the DMX Operator by itself would be very good for how you work. While it can work quite well live(I have one, I feel it can work well live), for recalling scenes, I find I need to refer back to my reference chart I made telling me what is where. It's arranged by bank and scene. If I'm doing one scene per song(typically like a karaoke event or party or wedding), then I can sort of plan ahead. I can choose a fast scene and a slow scene, and based on the next song, I have my options in my mind.
Another option, which may be cheaper(probably is), is to go software-based, with MyDMX. Load it on a laptop, even a pint-sized netbook and you have a very powerful DMX controller and operator right there. Should you want more control, I can tell you about some third-party hardware I use to help me get more control. I think you'll like the more powerful scene functions(multiple steps, perhaps thousands of steps per scene available, which can help you realize movers and scanners), as well as the 3D Visualizer to help you design your shows offline. You can still put channels into a manual over-ride mode so you can bring up stuff as you need. You don't get the option of "Overlaying" though, such as you can with your Magic 260. By this, I'm treating your scene as a scene, but then your usage of an Aux to trigger something else unrelated(but needed in your case) as a second scene you want overlayed over your initial scene. But, with 249 scenes available per show file, and show files quickly load, you should have sufficient scenes to do a whole show just off one show file. Since scenes use a label of your choosing, organization keeps you from getting lost(you can re-arrange scenes into any order you want).
There's too many options and choices. I just get the feeling you're outgrowing your Magic 260.
In your case, control is relative to what you want and how you need to best go about it.
First, I think that if you went with the TriPhase, you'd have more control from the standpoint of it's a DMX fixture and you definately can directly control it. But, keep this in mind for your applications. Please do check out the DMX traits in the manuals before you consider your purchase. You've mentioned quite a few times a need for sound-active feature, and I would assume you'd want a sound active option available while in DMX mode as well. In my opinion, while I don't know how often I would necessarily use a sound active function while in DMX mode, it's something I would like to have available. In my case, during a part of the big show I work on, I throw several of my LED lights into a sound active mode on a couple of scenes.
Reading the Tri Phase Manual, I can see it does not support sound active function in DMX mode. Watching the video, it's a neat fixture, I can see some nice uses for such a fixture in my stuff, including my big show. But right now I have to limit myself!(money)
I don't know what the aux buttons on the Magic 260 are truly capable of. I would think that if you are using a DMX LED fixture, and depending on the fixture, you may need 2 or more channels active to get an LED going. Most examples would be a dimmer channel and then at least one other channel, in your case, perhaps the channel where you can go into macro or sound active mode. I fail to see at the moment if the aux buttons are going to serve your needs properly.
The other option, I suppose, is to do as you suggest, which would be to either halve your scenes to make solo scene, or sacrifice one scene to a solo. I don't like the idea of you losing half your scenes just to accomodate one fixture. You definately don't want this fixture one on a switcher pack channel mainly because I think the Tri Phase would take at least 3 seconds to self-check and come up. Then you'd have your "solo" scene, and I think we're both in agreement that a static solo scene is not desired. I won't comment about what would be harder to control live, each operator is different. I think if things are well labelled and the operator has good familiarity, it shouldn't be a big deal.
It just seems that the Magic 260 has some shortcomings for some of your ideas. I'm not saying your ideas are bad, I just am getting the impression that this isn't the right console for you. Now, you can get around some of this with the following ideas:
You can get a second controller, such as, say, a DMX Operator. That is a scene-based controller and is rack mountable. You can program up to 240 scenes and 6 chases(made up of up to 240 steps, each step is a scene). You can directly call any scene, such as controlling these DMX FX like the Tri Phase. Now, couple this with a DMX combiner and collapse both your Magic 260 and the DMX Operator into one DMX signal.
I also don't think the DMX Operator by itself would be very good for how you work. While it can work quite well live(I have one, I feel it can work well live), for recalling scenes, I find I need to refer back to my reference chart I made telling me what is where. It's arranged by bank and scene. If I'm doing one scene per song(typically like a karaoke event or party or wedding), then I can sort of plan ahead. I can choose a fast scene and a slow scene, and based on the next song, I have my options in my mind.
Another option, which may be cheaper(probably is), is to go software-based, with MyDMX. Load it on a laptop, even a pint-sized netbook and you have a very powerful DMX controller and operator right there. Should you want more control, I can tell you about some third-party hardware I use to help me get more control. I think you'll like the more powerful scene functions(multiple steps, perhaps thousands of steps per scene available, which can help you realize movers and scanners), as well as the 3D Visualizer to help you design your shows offline. You can still put channels into a manual over-ride mode so you can bring up stuff as you need. You don't get the option of "Overlaying" though, such as you can with your Magic 260. By this, I'm treating your scene as a scene, but then your usage of an Aux to trigger something else unrelated(but needed in your case) as a second scene you want overlayed over your initial scene. But, with 249 scenes available per show file, and show files quickly load, you should have sufficient scenes to do a whole show just off one show file. Since scenes use a label of your choosing, organization keeps you from getting lost(you can re-arrange scenes into any order you want).
There's too many options and choices. I just get the feeling you're outgrowing your Magic 260.
The pack that the tri phase is plugged into is it addressed to the right address for the aux buttons? From the manual.
"AUXILIARY buttons:
These four buttons act as ON/OFF buttons via a DMX power pack. DMX channels 261-264 are
automatically patched to these buttons. When an AUXILIARY button LED is illuminated, the relevant
channel is ON. When the AUXILIARY button LED is OFF, the relevant channel is also OFF."
Let me know. If i need to i will dig up my magic 260.
Sincerely,
"AUXILIARY buttons:
These four buttons act as ON/OFF buttons via a DMX power pack. DMX channels 261-264 are
automatically patched to these buttons. When an AUXILIARY button LED is illuminated, the relevant
channel is ON. When the AUXILIARY button LED is OFF, the relevant channel is also OFF."
Let me know. If i need to i will dig up my magic 260.
Sincerely,
Well, based on what Jingles just said, using your AUX with the Tri Phase isn't going let you do what you want to do.
The Magic 260 manual says to set the DMX channel of the Univeral DMX pack to 264. Then says "The four AUXILIARY buttons will then control pack channels 1-4." I read this to mean that AUX button 1 turns on and off channel 264, AUX 2 turns on and off 265, etc. The DP-415 has dip switches 1-9 +10 for DMX on/off.
I don't see why it wouldn't work (BTW: I would use two Aggressors, both of which were plugged into the DP-415's first set of outlets.)
Thanks for you thoughts.
Hobson
I don't see why it wouldn't work (BTW: I would use two Aggressors, both of which were plugged into the DP-415's first set of outlets.)
Thanks for you thoughts.
Hobson
the dp 515 needs to be addressed to 261. and then you can plug in the fixtures to whatever channels plug you need.
also note that since the tri phase is a dmx fixture it goes through a self check mode so turning it on and off will not give you instant light output. Each time it shuts off it will need to re check the self test functions. I know this for a fact as we used them like that at mobile beat in vegas this year.
Sincerely,
also note that since the tri phase is a dmx fixture it goes through a self check mode so turning it on and off will not give you instant light output. Each time it shuts off it will need to re check the self test functions. I know this for a fact as we used them like that at mobile beat in vegas this year.
Sincerely,
Thanks James,
After the self test does it always return to the mode it was in when it was "unplugged?"
Hobson
After the self test does it always return to the mode it was in when it was "unplugged?"
Hobson
Well, my line of thinking was that Hobson was going to go with DMX control over the Tri Phase. Thus, with that in mind, the Magic 260 would fail based on how he wanted to operate it via the Aux buttons.
Sure, nothing wrong with hanging it off a switcher pack and placing it in sound active mode. I would have suspected that anything with moving parts inside AND is LED would take a few seconds to go through a self-test or at least a "return to zero" procedure. That's for sure a few seconds of downtime.
With these moving head fixtures and color-wheel based color changes(both non-ADJ) and even my non-ADJ follow spots with DMX functionality, it can take some of them up to 20 seconds to "get their crap together", especially the movers, just more to do.
I think the Agressor Tri LED, as it's not a DMX or intel fixture, would probably do the near instant-on thing. It's just a high-tech fixture using LED technology.
Also, doesn't the DP-415 doesn't have 2 outlets per channel, so you'd have to go ahead and use 2 Aux buttons on the Magic 260 to trigger your two Aggressor Tri LED's. That still leaves you a pair of channels open for something else.
Got a question: you planning on using fog or haze? That would look sick!!
Sure, nothing wrong with hanging it off a switcher pack and placing it in sound active mode. I would have suspected that anything with moving parts inside AND is LED would take a few seconds to go through a self-test or at least a "return to zero" procedure. That's for sure a few seconds of downtime.
With these moving head fixtures and color-wheel based color changes(both non-ADJ) and even my non-ADJ follow spots with DMX functionality, it can take some of them up to 20 seconds to "get their crap together", especially the movers, just more to do.
I think the Agressor Tri LED, as it's not a DMX or intel fixture, would probably do the near instant-on thing. It's just a high-tech fixture using LED technology.
Also, doesn't the DP-415 doesn't have 2 outlets per channel, so you'd have to go ahead and use 2 Aux buttons on the Magic 260 to trigger your two Aggressor Tri LED's. That still leaves you a pair of channels open for something else.
Got a question: you planning on using fog or haze? That would look sick!!
Hobson: yes I believe it does. since your not using a dmx cable on the unit then i believe it will sense no dmx and go into sound active mode. I do not fully recall what all happened at mobile for one it was a while ago and two.....it was vegas! haha.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
According to most ADJ fixtures and their manuals, if a fixture is not plugged into DMX, they seem to fail over to sound active mode. If chained together with like fixtures, they seem to fail over to master/slave mode.
Read your manual to be certain.
Read your manual to be certain.
Chris,
This is my first venture into band lighting. I've got plenty to tend to trying to get the lights in need, get them connected correctly and controlled properly. I've made a lot of progress - in no small part from help from this forum. And I'll be playing keyboard and handling the light show at the same time.
I'm going to put off adding a hazer to the mix for a while.
Hobson
This is my first venture into band lighting. I've got plenty to tend to trying to get the lights in need, get them connected correctly and controlled properly. I've made a lot of progress - in no small part from help from this forum. And I'll be playing keyboard and handling the light show at the same time.
I'm going to put off adding a hazer to the mix for a while.
Hobson
I think based on this thread, your choice of the Aggressor Tri LED is going to probably be your better bet. This is based on not only how you want to use it, but on price as well. As you know, when you want DMX, the price jumps up.
You can always expand later on and get MyDMX. Since you like to press buttons and depending on what you're doing keyboard wise, you could get an Ableton-oriented controller pad or an MPC-type controller with faders, or other devices(such as the Kork nano-series, which you could velcro to an open area) and use that for convenient triggers and controls. But the buy-in price for MyDMX jumps up when you consider you have to add-in a computer. Even so, what you get for the computer and software/hardware bundle is a LOT less expensive than what you would spend on a similarly featured console.
As far as hazers or foggers, definately go with the ADJ or Elation stuff. I prefer everything to have DMX functionality. With most hazers, you can just set and forget, which is cool too. I don't know if the Magic 260 has a dedicated fogger button. If it does, it usually takes a long trigger cable that would replace your remote. I have the Elation HZ-3000 fogger and love that thing, but you might think smaller because of the shows you're doing, the higher end devices just might not be cost effective. What I like about haze is it makes those beams pop but doesn't give you that "fog blast" effect since the haze is on pretty much full time.
I would like to make one other suggestion, and hopefully you can have a little bit of help. Please record your shows to video, even if it's just off the camera mic for audio. This isn't for your "archival" or "club scene DVD release", but more so you can evaluate your light show and design and see if you need to make adjustments or add to inventory.
By the way, when is your first show? You're going to want to practice at least so you can just get the feel for your new responsibilities behind the keys.
Me, I stopped being a musician ages ago in favor of just being an audio engineer. But I still have to run lights, monitor the recording and video(with multi-cam switching at times). No easy task. Not necessarily the best kind of busy!
You can always expand later on and get MyDMX. Since you like to press buttons and depending on what you're doing keyboard wise, you could get an Ableton-oriented controller pad or an MPC-type controller with faders, or other devices(such as the Kork nano-series, which you could velcro to an open area) and use that for convenient triggers and controls. But the buy-in price for MyDMX jumps up when you consider you have to add-in a computer. Even so, what you get for the computer and software/hardware bundle is a LOT less expensive than what you would spend on a similarly featured console.
As far as hazers or foggers, definately go with the ADJ or Elation stuff. I prefer everything to have DMX functionality. With most hazers, you can just set and forget, which is cool too. I don't know if the Magic 260 has a dedicated fogger button. If it does, it usually takes a long trigger cable that would replace your remote. I have the Elation HZ-3000 fogger and love that thing, but you might think smaller because of the shows you're doing, the higher end devices just might not be cost effective. What I like about haze is it makes those beams pop but doesn't give you that "fog blast" effect since the haze is on pretty much full time.
I would like to make one other suggestion, and hopefully you can have a little bit of help. Please record your shows to video, even if it's just off the camera mic for audio. This isn't for your "archival" or "club scene DVD release", but more so you can evaluate your light show and design and see if you need to make adjustments or add to inventory.
By the way, when is your first show? You're going to want to practice at least so you can just get the feel for your new responsibilities behind the keys.
Me, I stopped being a musician ages ago in favor of just being an audio engineer. But I still have to run lights, monitor the recording and video(with multi-cam switching at times). No easy task. Not necessarily the best kind of busy!
Chris,
I can't believe your generosity in helping people get up and running with lighting. Thank you very much.
I've already got a really complex keyboard setup: A Korg TR-61, a Korg M-50 and a rack mounted Motif ES. In addition I've got a Voiceworks Plus harmonizer. An FCB1010 is essential to changing all the patches between songs in a hurry. [You may have seen some of my threads hoping that I could also set the lighting scene/show with the FCB1010]. I'm pretty average when it comes to playing virtuosity, but with this rig I am way above average in getting the right sound for the situation.
Dealing with the lights to boot will be a complication; but I am finding it to be really challenging and interesting. Up til now my band has been playing under house lights or a cheap two pole ADJ incandecent par can system, both of which has been pretty lame (and occasionally the power drain from the incandecent system has been a disaster).
Assuming I can get it under control, the new lighting system is going to be a huge improvement to our act. So it is worth the complication and effort.
I've often thought that it would be a nice to add a computer to my rig so I could play VST sounds. Perhaps I could eliminate the Motif Rack if I did that. I haven't done it because it already takes a long time to set up my rig. Adding a computer would take even longer. Your suggestion of using MyDMX gives me an additional reason to make the switch. I may get there before long. I'm so busy trying to figure out the lighting system with the Magic 260 and the new lights that I'm going to put it off for a while longer. When I get to it all take your suggestions into account.
Our next gig (the first using the new light system) is May 2. Fortunately, I can spend a high percentage of my time between now and then getting everything sorted out, programmed and running.
As a result of your suggestion, I will defintely take a video of the gig and assess where I am from a lighting perspective.
Wish me luck!
Hobson
I can't believe your generosity in helping people get up and running with lighting. Thank you very much.
I've already got a really complex keyboard setup: A Korg TR-61, a Korg M-50 and a rack mounted Motif ES. In addition I've got a Voiceworks Plus harmonizer. An FCB1010 is essential to changing all the patches between songs in a hurry. [You may have seen some of my threads hoping that I could also set the lighting scene/show with the FCB1010]. I'm pretty average when it comes to playing virtuosity, but with this rig I am way above average in getting the right sound for the situation.
Dealing with the lights to boot will be a complication; but I am finding it to be really challenging and interesting. Up til now my band has been playing under house lights or a cheap two pole ADJ incandecent par can system, both of which has been pretty lame (and occasionally the power drain from the incandecent system has been a disaster).
Assuming I can get it under control, the new lighting system is going to be a huge improvement to our act. So it is worth the complication and effort.
I've often thought that it would be a nice to add a computer to my rig so I could play VST sounds. Perhaps I could eliminate the Motif Rack if I did that. I haven't done it because it already takes a long time to set up my rig. Adding a computer would take even longer. Your suggestion of using MyDMX gives me an additional reason to make the switch. I may get there before long. I'm so busy trying to figure out the lighting system with the Magic 260 and the new lights that I'm going to put it off for a while longer. When I get to it all take your suggestions into account.
Our next gig (the first using the new light system) is May 2. Fortunately, I can spend a high percentage of my time between now and then getting everything sorted out, programmed and running.
As a result of your suggestion, I will defintely take a video of the gig and assess where I am from a lighting perspective.
Wish me luck!
Hobson
I look forward to the video. always nice to see our products out "in the real world" you know.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
I got nothing better to do right now. Due to extended illness, I'm pretty much halted from workng as I can't do much(lift for example). I'm only using the forums to keep from going insane(well, more insane).
I have a fairly complex keyboard rig. 4 keyboards, 4-5 rack synths, 2 MIDI routers and a computer MIDI interface(1 router handles live performance routing, the second router handles the hand-off for sequencing). I forget what's in the rack, all I know is I do have the prototype that was used for UL approval for the E-mu Proteus 1. I think there's an M3R, Wavestation SR, Roland D-110 and something else,I can't remember. The keyboards are an Alesis QS-8, the Korg DS-8, a Roland D-50 and a Juno-2. On the back is a 24-channel mixer that is very well populated.
I definately hear ya with the incadescent part can on a tree system. 2 trees of 4 Par38's each can draw 1200-watts. I run 8 Par38's on a tree, and that's 2400 watts, or a 20-amp circuit at full draw. And I have 4 of them! That's why I am going LED, the draw is so small compared to what I was pulling. Not to say I'm going 100% LED, but I'm moving LED as much as possible. Certain lights just do better using other technologies.
Just imagine the fun you can have with trusses and crank stands, or even ground-mounted fixtures. Oh wait, you're doing some of that already. I do agree that the complications lead to improvements, and therefore are worth the effort.
Using the same computer running MyDMX and VST might not be a great idea though. I mean, it canbe done, and MyDMX, when not runnig the 3D Visualizer, is NOT a resource hog. I've been working with computers longer than I've been doing pro audio, and just have issues trusting all this stuff to computers, even more so in a live situation. I find dedicated hardware outperforms the computers a vast majority of the time. I would say that if I were going to do it, I'd buy a really poweful laptop, max out the RAM, optimize/harden the OS, and upgrade the internal hard drive to at least a 500gig 7200RPM rive(or at least as big as I can get at 7200RPM), and on top of that, A MAC, for VST. You can get a dinky Atom-based netbook for MyDMX.
After thousands of shows including many with A-listers, some are doing some canned tracks, a few are doing VST stuff, but most prefer their dedicated hardware. Nothing worse than a computer taking a dump on you in a show. Could be worse, I saw Kieth Urban's monitor console take a crap 5 minutes before stage. Had to delay 10 minutes to ensure it came all the way up.
My laptop is a 17" Macbook Pro. Top of the line at the time when I bought it in 2008. 2.66Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo processor, upgraded screen. I mainly use it as a PC. Using it right now as a PC to do this post running XP Home. Works so much faster as a Mac! I run MyDMX on it, works great.
I would say you've jumped in deep for now. Learn what you've got, then take steps. Between now and May 2 is 12 days. That ain't a lot of time unless you're allowed to concentrate. Just label the hell out of everything. Draw out your wiring diagram. Label yur fixtures, label your DMX cables(please use DMX cables!) and make yourself a DMX terminator if you don't have one already(I forget if you said something about those items).
I just got finished with a small project of testing every function on my big audio desk, and re-certifying all the wiring, as well as cleaning it inside and out and re-testing all console functions.
Use each show to gain some sort of knowledge. Don't be afraid to fail. Accept failure as long as failure leads to increased knowledge. That way it's not failure, only progress.
Now the question is have you opened Pandora's Box or a can of worms. Either way, your bank account is going to take a beating!
Then again, what the hell do I know? I'm just an sound engineer. Me like microphones! I drain my funds on gear constantly. Audio, lighting, video, recording, doens't matter. I'm screwing myself 4 ways!
I have a fairly complex keyboard rig. 4 keyboards, 4-5 rack synths, 2 MIDI routers and a computer MIDI interface(1 router handles live performance routing, the second router handles the hand-off for sequencing). I forget what's in the rack, all I know is I do have the prototype that was used for UL approval for the E-mu Proteus 1. I think there's an M3R, Wavestation SR, Roland D-110 and something else,I can't remember. The keyboards are an Alesis QS-8, the Korg DS-8, a Roland D-50 and a Juno-2. On the back is a 24-channel mixer that is very well populated.
I definately hear ya with the incadescent part can on a tree system. 2 trees of 4 Par38's each can draw 1200-watts. I run 8 Par38's on a tree, and that's 2400 watts, or a 20-amp circuit at full draw. And I have 4 of them! That's why I am going LED, the draw is so small compared to what I was pulling. Not to say I'm going 100% LED, but I'm moving LED as much as possible. Certain lights just do better using other technologies.
Just imagine the fun you can have with trusses and crank stands, or even ground-mounted fixtures. Oh wait, you're doing some of that already. I do agree that the complications lead to improvements, and therefore are worth the effort.
Using the same computer running MyDMX and VST might not be a great idea though. I mean, it canbe done, and MyDMX, when not runnig the 3D Visualizer, is NOT a resource hog. I've been working with computers longer than I've been doing pro audio, and just have issues trusting all this stuff to computers, even more so in a live situation. I find dedicated hardware outperforms the computers a vast majority of the time. I would say that if I were going to do it, I'd buy a really poweful laptop, max out the RAM, optimize/harden the OS, and upgrade the internal hard drive to at least a 500gig 7200RPM rive(or at least as big as I can get at 7200RPM), and on top of that, A MAC, for VST. You can get a dinky Atom-based netbook for MyDMX.
After thousands of shows including many with A-listers, some are doing some canned tracks, a few are doing VST stuff, but most prefer their dedicated hardware. Nothing worse than a computer taking a dump on you in a show. Could be worse, I saw Kieth Urban's monitor console take a crap 5 minutes before stage. Had to delay 10 minutes to ensure it came all the way up.
My laptop is a 17" Macbook Pro. Top of the line at the time when I bought it in 2008. 2.66Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo processor, upgraded screen. I mainly use it as a PC. Using it right now as a PC to do this post running XP Home. Works so much faster as a Mac! I run MyDMX on it, works great.
I would say you've jumped in deep for now. Learn what you've got, then take steps. Between now and May 2 is 12 days. That ain't a lot of time unless you're allowed to concentrate. Just label the hell out of everything. Draw out your wiring diagram. Label yur fixtures, label your DMX cables(please use DMX cables!) and make yourself a DMX terminator if you don't have one already(I forget if you said something about those items).
I just got finished with a small project of testing every function on my big audio desk, and re-certifying all the wiring, as well as cleaning it inside and out and re-testing all console functions.
Use each show to gain some sort of knowledge. Don't be afraid to fail. Accept failure as long as failure leads to increased knowledge. That way it's not failure, only progress.
Now the question is have you opened Pandora's Box or a can of worms. Either way, your bank account is going to take a beating!
Then again, what the hell do I know? I'm just an sound engineer. Me like microphones! I drain my funds on gear constantly. Audio, lighting, video, recording, doens't matter. I'm screwing myself 4 ways!
Sorry to hear about you being bunged up. Get well soon! [But if you get well before May 2, please keep checking the forums - I may need your advice.]
I guess I just thought my rig was complicated. Guessed wrong! But, as I'm sure you know, compared to the guys who show up with an ax and an amp and wonder why their mikes aren't working yet, it's complicated. As the only person in the band that knows anything about sound, midi and lights, I've had my hands full.
We own and used to use an Allen Heath GL2400 with outboard effects, two compressors and a feedback eliminator, but the guy who ran sound is no longer available. I'm having to make do with a 12 track Peavey with built in effects. [It sucks having to try to handle that from on stage, but you do what you've got to do.] I've talked one of the guitar players into taking over that job so I can run the lights. [His guess from the stage is probably as good as mine.]
In case you would want to offer some suggestions, here is what I've got for a light system:
- Two trees in front, each with 4 Par 56 LED (cheapo) cans
- An Electro Eliminator 192 (small LED panel) high on each side of the stage on an extended speaker stand
- Two Aggressor TRI LEDs (which will share the poles with the side washes)
- Two MEGA Bar Pros as back wall washes (I wanted to step up to the MEGA Tri Bar, but couldn't find any that could be shipped before the gig. Based on you comments, I abandoned the desire for the back washes to work in Master/Slave mode with DMX control of the master)
- One KAM Parcam (like a Chauvet 4-bar) to add color and action from behind the band.
-Three 150w halogen work lights for behind the band shining forward (to be used sparingly as silhouette creators)
I'll run the Aggressors and the halogens with a DP-415 (in switch mode!) using the AUX buttons on the MAGIC 260. [I'm going to see if I can get the MAGIC 260 to control the DP-415 both with the buttons and within scenes; but I'm dubious that it will do both.]
We have five singers that need to be highlighted from time to time. I'm planning to use five of the eight cans up front as spotlights on the singers (bringing up the intensity on whoever is singing lead - by selecting a scene/show made up for that situation). I'll use the outside cans on both front trees, the side washes and the Parbar to add color over the stage and one of the inside front tree cans to highlight the drums.
I'll try to remember to trigger the Aggressors 30 seconds (or whatever is required) before I want them to come on (which won't be all that often).
The thing I'm worried most about is getting a decent color on the faces. My eye is telling me that 255/255/255 looks terrible, and that 255/205/50 should look OK. [I know incandecents would look better for this, but I want to keep it simple and low power if I can, and I don't want to buy more Universal Dimmers and the hassle of hanging them off the trees.] I'd especially welcome any suggestions about how to get the best color on the singers using LED pars.
Please don't feel obliged to respond to this email. I offer it to give you something to do in case you get bored in your sick-bed. I have the spare time to write this because I've been stuck in Boston - away from my light - for the last several days [my wife ran THE Marathon on Monday]. I'm hanging out until it's time to catch our plane back home - to the lights!
Thanks again for all your help and any help to come.
Hobson
PS: The band is six retired or almost retired guys doing 60s and 70s rock covers - reliving our glory days as "muscians" in high school. We're having a blast.
I guess I just thought my rig was complicated. Guessed wrong! But, as I'm sure you know, compared to the guys who show up with an ax and an amp and wonder why their mikes aren't working yet, it's complicated. As the only person in the band that knows anything about sound, midi and lights, I've had my hands full.
We own and used to use an Allen Heath GL2400 with outboard effects, two compressors and a feedback eliminator, but the guy who ran sound is no longer available. I'm having to make do with a 12 track Peavey with built in effects. [It sucks having to try to handle that from on stage, but you do what you've got to do.] I've talked one of the guitar players into taking over that job so I can run the lights. [His guess from the stage is probably as good as mine.]
In case you would want to offer some suggestions, here is what I've got for a light system:
- Two trees in front, each with 4 Par 56 LED (cheapo) cans
- An Electro Eliminator 192 (small LED panel) high on each side of the stage on an extended speaker stand
- Two Aggressor TRI LEDs (which will share the poles with the side washes)
- Two MEGA Bar Pros as back wall washes (I wanted to step up to the MEGA Tri Bar, but couldn't find any that could be shipped before the gig. Based on you comments, I abandoned the desire for the back washes to work in Master/Slave mode with DMX control of the master)
- One KAM Parcam (like a Chauvet 4-bar) to add color and action from behind the band.
-Three 150w halogen work lights for behind the band shining forward (to be used sparingly as silhouette creators)
I'll run the Aggressors and the halogens with a DP-415 (in switch mode!) using the AUX buttons on the MAGIC 260. [I'm going to see if I can get the MAGIC 260 to control the DP-415 both with the buttons and within scenes; but I'm dubious that it will do both.]
We have five singers that need to be highlighted from time to time. I'm planning to use five of the eight cans up front as spotlights on the singers (bringing up the intensity on whoever is singing lead - by selecting a scene/show made up for that situation). I'll use the outside cans on both front trees, the side washes and the Parbar to add color over the stage and one of the inside front tree cans to highlight the drums.
I'll try to remember to trigger the Aggressors 30 seconds (or whatever is required) before I want them to come on (which won't be all that often).
The thing I'm worried most about is getting a decent color on the faces. My eye is telling me that 255/255/255 looks terrible, and that 255/205/50 should look OK. [I know incandecents would look better for this, but I want to keep it simple and low power if I can, and I don't want to buy more Universal Dimmers and the hassle of hanging them off the trees.] I'd especially welcome any suggestions about how to get the best color on the singers using LED pars.
Please don't feel obliged to respond to this email. I offer it to give you something to do in case you get bored in your sick-bed. I have the spare time to write this because I've been stuck in Boston - away from my light - for the last several days [my wife ran THE Marathon on Monday]. I'm hanging out until it's time to catch our plane back home - to the lights!
Thanks again for all your help and any help to come.
Hobson
PS: The band is six retired or almost retired guys doing 60s and 70s rock covers - reliving our glory days as "muscians" in high school. We're having a blast.
Check out my inventory:
Studio42 Gear List
Based around a 76-input A&H ML5000 48B. Loads of goodies external(it has to be, it's analog!)
Even when and if I ever get well, I'll still be on here. Ever since the big beat-down on my February 27th show, it just wore me out like nothing has in a long time, and that allowed all this other crap to creep in and kick my butt on a microscopic level.
Now, your cans are wash lights, but I understand your application. They should work fine for what you are planning to use them for.
Also, I can't relate the DMX values to reality, but if your eyes like what you see, then that's really all that matters. I can somewhat agree that the pure white from the LED's can be a bit "cold".
Also, I'm real bad on the visualization stuff too. Not to plug MyDMX, but you can quite literally make a picture of your stage and your fixtures and your gear(including band members) and place them in there and literally SEE if your design works.
You're asking about the best way to light up the singers. Well, honestly, I think your cans on the trees is your best bet, and if I was doin it, that's what I would do with my own gear. The only issue is that those LED cans need some throw to work their best and avoid the RGB shadowing that is something that happens when you're using different LED's for RGB color mixing. That and beam size. Try to hit everyone from at least 2 angles. You may wish to consider a footlight application as well. I see the Profile Panels and the Mega Bar 50's being pretty good choices based on cost and size and how their beams tend to stay right where you want them.
Not to knock Chauvet, but have you thought about the ADJ Mega Pixel or a newer similar type fixture for your back color light action for behind the band? I think because of the limitations of the Mega Bar Pros AND your controller, you'd need something else you can throw into a better sound active mode. Check your manuals, you may have a sound active mode on those Mega Bar Pros as well. What I'm really getting at is you're really not able to tap into all the cool stuff you've got in your possession right now.
I'm not sure if Jingles and I agree or disagree on this, but going back to the Aggressor Tri LED, I really don't think they'll take more than half a second to come live as they aren't an intel-capable fixture. Regardless, once you get them, you can start screwing around with them and get real answers. Based on what I've learned about what Jingles has done at some of those trade shows, I can't expect him to remember such details about every fixture. If I had one myself, I'd have powered it up for you and given you an answer based on what numbers I could come up with based on observation and a stopwatch!
Well, it might be hard to justify the costs is about all I can say. Your going almost entirely LED, once you move past that Magic 260 and the color changing abilities, say, with MyDMX, you're going ot probably just drive yourself nuts with all the options you'll have for your lighting show.
With everything else you've shared, I think at this point, it's mainly see if you can try it at rehearsal this weekend in a room if space permits, just to get an idea. Other than that, your biggest issues after you set it up is to "focus", which means to aim your lights. This will vary from show to show. As long as you guys mostly stay put, you'll be fine.
On a final note:
Bore from my sick bed? Hardly. My wife decided after 2 weeks I was "well enough" so I've been worked like a slave since then. Even those 2 weeks, I was run fairly ragged. There's no rest around here.
Even my 2 weeks of what little rest I was allowed was not restful. I got my 2 pug dogs fighting for the "best position" on me or my lap as I tried to rest.(depends how it goes if I'm laying on the sofa or sitting). Plus, our(wife and I) 3 young kids that I have to watch, which is an everyday thing anyways. Nothing better than every 3 minutes someone inventing a reason to create conflict!
My task today is to unbury 2 subwoofers from the garage to use at an event tomorrow for my eldest kid's kindergarten performance. I'm running 4 camera angles, 4 mics covering zones and 2 wireless mics for the performance, plus I'm going to have 2 more wireless(one for teachers and one as an emergency mic), plus run mains, monitors and recording off my dinky Yamaha ProMix01, although I may go with my Mackie 1604 VLZ, I haven't decided yet. Also running the antennas for wireless.
Camera angles will be a wide shot, then a center close 3/4 shot. Other two angles will be an audience reaction and maybe some other strange angle just for the heck of it.
Lights will be 4 Mega Panels and 4 Mega Bar 50's in floor mounted positions, run via MyDMX. I'm not using my 8 ADJ 64 LED Pros because one is being repaired and I don't think I have the space to run the trees.
I just hope it all fits into the car on one trip!! I wish my truck was back, just so I don't have to worry about space and transport problems.
Studio42 Gear List
Based around a 76-input A&H ML5000 48B. Loads of goodies external(it has to be, it's analog!)
Even when and if I ever get well, I'll still be on here. Ever since the big beat-down on my February 27th show, it just wore me out like nothing has in a long time, and that allowed all this other crap to creep in and kick my butt on a microscopic level.
Now, your cans are wash lights, but I understand your application. They should work fine for what you are planning to use them for.
Also, I can't relate the DMX values to reality, but if your eyes like what you see, then that's really all that matters. I can somewhat agree that the pure white from the LED's can be a bit "cold".
Also, I'm real bad on the visualization stuff too. Not to plug MyDMX, but you can quite literally make a picture of your stage and your fixtures and your gear(including band members) and place them in there and literally SEE if your design works.
You're asking about the best way to light up the singers. Well, honestly, I think your cans on the trees is your best bet, and if I was doin it, that's what I would do with my own gear. The only issue is that those LED cans need some throw to work their best and avoid the RGB shadowing that is something that happens when you're using different LED's for RGB color mixing. That and beam size. Try to hit everyone from at least 2 angles. You may wish to consider a footlight application as well. I see the Profile Panels and the Mega Bar 50's being pretty good choices based on cost and size and how their beams tend to stay right where you want them.
Not to knock Chauvet, but have you thought about the ADJ Mega Pixel or a newer similar type fixture for your back color light action for behind the band? I think because of the limitations of the Mega Bar Pros AND your controller, you'd need something else you can throw into a better sound active mode. Check your manuals, you may have a sound active mode on those Mega Bar Pros as well. What I'm really getting at is you're really not able to tap into all the cool stuff you've got in your possession right now.
I'm not sure if Jingles and I agree or disagree on this, but going back to the Aggressor Tri LED, I really don't think they'll take more than half a second to come live as they aren't an intel-capable fixture. Regardless, once you get them, you can start screwing around with them and get real answers. Based on what I've learned about what Jingles has done at some of those trade shows, I can't expect him to remember such details about every fixture. If I had one myself, I'd have powered it up for you and given you an answer based on what numbers I could come up with based on observation and a stopwatch!
Well, it might be hard to justify the costs is about all I can say. Your going almost entirely LED, once you move past that Magic 260 and the color changing abilities, say, with MyDMX, you're going ot probably just drive yourself nuts with all the options you'll have for your lighting show.
With everything else you've shared, I think at this point, it's mainly see if you can try it at rehearsal this weekend in a room if space permits, just to get an idea. Other than that, your biggest issues after you set it up is to "focus", which means to aim your lights. This will vary from show to show. As long as you guys mostly stay put, you'll be fine.
On a final note:
Bore from my sick bed? Hardly. My wife decided after 2 weeks I was "well enough" so I've been worked like a slave since then. Even those 2 weeks, I was run fairly ragged. There's no rest around here.
Even my 2 weeks of what little rest I was allowed was not restful. I got my 2 pug dogs fighting for the "best position" on me or my lap as I tried to rest.(depends how it goes if I'm laying on the sofa or sitting). Plus, our(wife and I) 3 young kids that I have to watch, which is an everyday thing anyways. Nothing better than every 3 minutes someone inventing a reason to create conflict!
My task today is to unbury 2 subwoofers from the garage to use at an event tomorrow for my eldest kid's kindergarten performance. I'm running 4 camera angles, 4 mics covering zones and 2 wireless mics for the performance, plus I'm going to have 2 more wireless(one for teachers and one as an emergency mic), plus run mains, monitors and recording off my dinky Yamaha ProMix01, although I may go with my Mackie 1604 VLZ, I haven't decided yet. Also running the antennas for wireless.
Camera angles will be a wide shot, then a center close 3/4 shot. Other two angles will be an audience reaction and maybe some other strange angle just for the heck of it.
Lights will be 4 Mega Panels and 4 Mega Bar 50's in floor mounted positions, run via MyDMX. I'm not using my 8 ADJ 64 LED Pros because one is being repaired and I don't think I have the space to run the trees.
I just hope it all fits into the car on one trip!! I wish my truck was back, just so I don't have to worry about space and transport problems.
Chris,
You were right. The Aggressor comes on almost instantly - it's less than three seconds. [James is right too - it doesn't come on instantly.]
This is a great feature of the Magic 260. It works great for turning the Aggressor on and off at will, no matter what the rest of your light show/scene is doing.
Hobson
You were right. The Aggressor comes on almost instantly - it's less than three seconds. [James is right too - it doesn't come on instantly.]
This is a great feature of the Magic 260. It works great for turning the Aggressor on and off at will, no matter what the rest of your light show/scene is doing.
Hobson
3 seconds can be a lifetime, but you seem happy with it so all is good. Really, that's all that matters in the end anyways is that you can work wiht the fixture. The lack of moving parts allows for a quick start-up.
Yes, that is something that is nice about the Magic 260 where you have these nice "plus" buttons to add to an existing scene.
One thing I don't like about the "run all night" mentality is that in seems sometimes they just expect you to throw up a couple of lights, run them all night and that's your light show. This is more of a DJ-type issue, where less CAN be more(but sometimes isn't) and less investment means more profit. Not knocking DJ's, because I as a sound company do the same thing. Not bashing you either, as you've already invested heavily and now you're basically trying to realize ideas.
When I do sound and lights(not music) for this rave event I do twice a year, I rotate my centerpiece lights in 10 minute intervals as per their stated duty cycles. Since I have other lights, I am planning on bringing those in and then "breaking things up" a bit more. Even though all the kids are buzzing on sugar from that Poky crap they are eating all day long and probably don't care(and it's fun watching them crash!), I want to break things up. More lights means more variety. It does mean I have to be more aware of time on and off, but that's managable. In this rave event, time is NOT of the essence, as there is quite literally NO tie between what lights and music are doing, which makes the event go smoother. Also, the tag-team of DJ's and MC's don't seem to mind either as they seem to work with it pretty good. My main thing is to keep lights moving and dancing and changing, while the DJ team keeps the music pumping through my sound system.
In your case, you want to hit solos, so I bet you just hit your magic button a measure before the solo and I bet most of the time you're close enough that it won't matter. The most important thing is you're happy with the fixture. Good news!
Yes, that is something that is nice about the Magic 260 where you have these nice "plus" buttons to add to an existing scene.
One thing I don't like about the "run all night" mentality is that in seems sometimes they just expect you to throw up a couple of lights, run them all night and that's your light show. This is more of a DJ-type issue, where less CAN be more(but sometimes isn't) and less investment means more profit. Not knocking DJ's, because I as a sound company do the same thing. Not bashing you either, as you've already invested heavily and now you're basically trying to realize ideas.
When I do sound and lights(not music) for this rave event I do twice a year, I rotate my centerpiece lights in 10 minute intervals as per their stated duty cycles. Since I have other lights, I am planning on bringing those in and then "breaking things up" a bit more. Even though all the kids are buzzing on sugar from that Poky crap they are eating all day long and probably don't care(and it's fun watching them crash!), I want to break things up. More lights means more variety. It does mean I have to be more aware of time on and off, but that's managable. In this rave event, time is NOT of the essence, as there is quite literally NO tie between what lights and music are doing, which makes the event go smoother. Also, the tag-team of DJ's and MC's don't seem to mind either as they seem to work with it pretty good. My main thing is to keep lights moving and dancing and changing, while the DJ team keeps the music pumping through my sound system.
In your case, you want to hit solos, so I bet you just hit your magic button a measure before the solo and I bet most of the time you're close enough that it won't matter. The most important thing is you're happy with the fixture. Good news!