Controller Selection

What controller you buy is really up to what you need to accomplish, as well as doing some forward thinking and trying to figure out where you might be in 3-5 years.

First off, the P64LED's are DMX fixtures. That means you won't need any additional dimmer packs. You will need some power cables and maybe some power strips to split the electric signal up for them. DO NOT put them on dimmer packs though. Use the dimmer packs as you have been on your existing 8 Par64's.

Now, a simple controller with loads of features is the DMX Operator. It's easy to use, very affordable and supports up to 192 DMX channels. It can also store something like 240 scenes and 6 chases. Chases are made from scenes.

For a little bit more(maybe, sometimes the DMX Operators go on sale for super cheap!), you could go with a software solution for Windows. It is called "MyDMX". It's easy to use and for what you get for the money, it's one heck of a product. It's also easy to use, graphical, visual and has lots of time saving features as well.

There are also lots of other controllers available. Again, my recommendation is to project forward to see where you are now(which you are small, that's fine), and see if you are thinking about adding scanners, moving yoke fixtures and other DMX/intel fixtures. If so, MyDMX might be the way to go, or at least stepping up higher for controllers. If you're doing syncing to music or more intensive stuff, perhaps CompuWare might be more to your liking.

I'm advising you to think forward so you don't buy a controller that is too low end, then quickly outgrow it and have to replace it, selling the old at a deep discount. Not to knock the ADJ/Elation controllers, but this stuff does NOT retain it's value on the resale marketplace. Then again, until you get into the big time pro gear, you're not going to get a good price from when you sell it.

Start looking, start thinking and keep asking.

Chris,

Thanks for the reply.

I may buy a couple of intelligent lights in the future. I'm interested in the DMX Operator Pro and the DMX Operator.

Do you think either of these will suit my needs as a small venue band arrangement?

Mark

A definate maybe.

I have the DMX Operator. It's great for non-intels(Read this mainly as non-movers). I can't comment on the Pro because I don't have it. I outgrew my DMX Operator, not becuase I am using more than 192 channels, but becuase I have some moving yoke lights and I want to do movement and something more complicated than simple static scenes and chases that wouldn't last enough. So, I've moved onto MyDMX. Even so, it's an easy to use controller, lots of goodies and is great for doing things like washes, blends and other things.

If complictaed scenes are not an issue, either would be fine. By complicated scene, I am thinking about MyDMX, where on a show I am working on,it's not unusual for a scene to have over 500 steps.

If you're thinking wash lights, small venue and small band arrangement with some room to expand, you'd go well with either solution. I would suggest programming scenes for sure, maybe a bank of your favorite color combinations on the LED's. You can't directly control more than 16 contiguous channels at a time unless you're programming and making scenes, or else you have overlap. Knowing the limitations of the controller for live use makes you want to program it more.

For the money, if you have the spare laptop, go MyDMX. I still carry my DMX Operator as a fail-over in case myDMX fails on me.

Roger-that, thanks again.

UPDATE:

I purchased the Elation DMX Operator Pro and two Matrix DMX 4 channel dimmer packs to work with my ADJ P64 LED systems.

http://www.bulbamerica.com/MAT...r-Pack-4133-prod.htm

I set all LED micro switches to position #1 (on). I set the Matrix dimmers to Channel #1 in the DMX mode = A001.

I'm getting a few of the LED's on each light blinking to a pattern. This happens with (4) LEDS plugged into the dimmer, the dimmer power off, and the dimmer plugged into the AC outlet.

I get the same thing when I turn the dimmer power on.

There's no change when the Operator Pro is turned on. I have no control of the LEDS with the Operator Pro.

I've tried setting the micro switches to the following: 1, 17, 33, and 49, with same results.

I can however, control regular PAR64 can with the Operator Pro and a Matrix dimmer set to PAR cans.

Any assistance is appreciated.

your not plugging your par 64 leds into the dimmer packs are you?

You don't need dimmer packs with the ADJ P64 LED lights.

Read this rule:
DMX fixtures(those with a DMX connecttors) SHOULD NEVER be plugged into dimmer packs.

Disconnect the dimmers, run DMX right into the LED fixturs, plug the LED's into a power strip. Go have fun this way.

Let's hope you didn't damage anything.

If your concern is "well, then how do I turn the fixture off when I don't use it", you don't actually turn the fixture "off", but rather set the dimmer channel to ZERO and you're all done.

I hope this clears things up.

The PAR's were plugged into a separate Matrix dimmer pack during one trial.

Originally, only the LED's were used on one of the dimmer packs. I tried the PAR's to see if the controller would work with them. After seeing the PAR's work, I took them down.

Just LED's now.

I read Chris and Jingle's posts and I am happy to report that..... I GOT LIGHTS!

Thanks again, fellas.

Yeah! Another user who is made more DMX knowledgable!

Way to go and thanks for the update. It appears that you sailed through with no lighting damage.

You know what I would do though, especially if I was using MyDMX(Oh wait, I am), I'd give those LED's their own unique addresses so you can do some really cool stuff in the FX generator.

In the meantime, you still have a really good controller with tons of features and room to grow.

I checked out the MyDMX. It is cool to say the least. I'll get some much needed knowledge and experience before advancing to that controller.

While I gotcha here... I added three Pocket Scans to my collection. Can they be controlled with the joy stick?

quote:

I added three Pocket Scans to my collection. Can they be controlled with the joy stick?

Of Course. They have pan and tilt don;t they?
Sincerely,

The thing I like a about MyDMX was that it allows a lot of easy programming of fixtures, including complex moving sequences, chases, washes and more. Yes, there is a learning curve, but I'd say within a couple of days, you'd be feeling comfortable with it.

I'm delegating my DMX Operator to controlling my Par38's for smaller events. For the most part(OK, pretty much full time now), I'm using MyDMX.

In the meantime, you can assign the stick to the applicable channels and thus control those pocket scans. I forget if MyDMX has joystick support. If it does, I should run out and get a USB joystick fast. I'm heading to an electronics shop in a short bit, maybe I'll get an IM telling me to get one.

Thanks for the replies.

I'm getting more excited with the whole lighting aspect. Trouble is... there's not enough spare time daily to tinker with them. : )

Next question: Hazer vs. Fog. Is there a difference?

Hazer vs fog: Is there a difference?

Yes. A BIG difference.

Fog is great when you want that THICK fog effect, or that blast of fog, which in and of itself can be a good effect just on its own. Foggers often have at at minimum an onboard switch to trigger fog, which for me I find best for testing. Most foggers also have a wired or wireless remote, or in some cases, an option to go both ways or an either-or. I have 2 ADJ FogStorm 700's that come with a wired remote, and I also have one of the wireless remote control systems. The Fog Storm 700 is a low power fogger(700 watts) and really, based on the pricing, is more of a "party-type" fogger, good for small rooms and house parties rather than a professional event. ADJ and Antari DO offer better foggers for bigger events.

Some foggers also have DMX functionality, which gives you good remote control capability. I'm not saying not having DMX control is a key feature, but for me and my applications, it is a necessary feature. However, foggers that have DMX typically also include a wired remote as well as on-board controls, giving you basically any option you could possibly want.

Haze is an extremely THIN fog that is typically run continuously. Many people run hazers off some sort of remote controller or the onboard controls(as applicable). Me, I use an Elation HZ-300 that I control via DMX, which for me is necessary because I increase and decrease the amount of haze I generate in certain areas of some shows, so I do need that hands on control.

Take this part as you will:
There are two types of fluids: Oil based and water based. Oil-based fluid will build up residue after a while. Also, in some cases, it can be a irritant for SOME people.(I'm one of them). One of my requirements is for water-based because it leaves no residue, in a trade off for less hang-time. The HZ-300 I chose can go either way. The thing is that once you go oil-based, you're going to have to stay that way. I'll choose the risk of shorter hang for water based fluid. I'll always choose water-based fluid for all my applications whenever possible.

DO NOT assume your hazer or fogger will work off water-based fluid. Check your manual. ALSO, while it does tie you into a brand, its really best to use the recommended fluid. You can get away with a bit of "straying" with foggers, but not so much with hazers. While any good quality fluid will work and work well, almost every company seems to offer their own rbands of fluid, and there are also some companies that all they do is make fluid.

For me, I need to stock up on some fluids, and I'm going with Antari fluids.

Fog and haze CAN work together. It depends on the application. During a show I am working, I have ongoing haze, but I do fog blasts at multiple key points. The haze gives the lights some "pop" the whole time, while fog is used for extra effect, such as highlighting an explosion or in another instance, help enhance a scene that is supposed to be psychodelic.

Haze and fog fluid are generally not compatible as the processes are different.

There are devices called Fazers that are a combination of fogger and hazer. They put out a thick haze, but can also blast fog. Expensive, very usable depending on your situation, but not ideal for all situations. These aren't good foggers or good hazers, but they still have a huge range of applications. These tend to use fog fluid, which explains the soupier haze output.

I own an HZ-300 and an ICE-101(a ground fogger). I am planning on getting a fazer and a dedicated fogger. I don't currently own the fogger I mentioned above(for the show I am working on) because the producer of the show owns that. I'm going to get the AccuFog 1000 since I need to re-aim the fogger. Yeah, a bit overkill and expensive I know.

With a huge range in pricing and capability, there are a lot of options to choose from.

So yes, BIG difference between hazer and fog. Different effects. Haze is a "fill the room up" while fog is more of a blast and short-term effect. They CAN work together, so no fear of mixing and matching.

I am planning on using the hazer at more evetns.

Excellent intel, thanks Chris!

I can see the uses for these and hope to have both eventually.

Mark

A couple of years ago I worked with this band called "Insect". They were kind of an "socially conscious" industrial band. Pretty cool stuff. They did their own lighting. They'd hit the fog pretty thick many times. In this case, it was so you'd see whatever light they were using so you could see the beams in it really good(It was an ADJ fixture).

Some lights really LOVE the fog. Whatever fixture they were using, Haze would have worked, but the thick fog really made it work good.

In my modest assortment of lights, I can get away with haze on my centerpeices, but my "scanner-type" dance lights don't work so well unless I use fog.

With haze, you definately get the beams to varying degrees. I like this effect.

Check out my web site, check out photos for 2009, namely near the top, for December 12, 2009(My last show of the year). The hazer was featured heavily.

One thing I do like about my hazer is that it draws less than my fogger. I never have calls for fog or haze, and when I did, the cheap fogger worked fine. I see fog definately being something I can market with now. Just do keep in mind that these units do have a hefty current draw, so be mindful of what power you're pulling. Part of the reason I'm switching to LED lighting is to reduce my power draw so I can do things like run my hazer.

I think foggers and hazers can work really well together. Sounds like you already have a good vision of what you want to do.

Dang, man! Studio 42 has some mojo. lol...

Haze appears like a smokey bar. Adds just enough haze to compliment the lights.

I wish I had more knowledge and experience with sound & lights. It will come in time.

I've been a drummer for many years. I'm finding as much fun, if not more with sound & lights. I'll do a DJ gig, but mainly run S&L for my band.

This is definitely contagious. It's a great hobby for me.

Here's a link of some of my gear, etc... I fogged up the garage while playing with the controllers and lights.

www.bandmix.com/tdw-20

Haze could be done as thick as a "smokey bar", but typically, smoke particals are a bit "heftier" but tend to stay airborn longer. You can do haze thick or thin. When I do haze, I put it at around 50% and leave it. I crank it up to start things off, then after about 5 minutes, I turn it down. On the show I am working on, I turn OFF the haze at intermission. 2 minutes before show re-starts, I turn it on full, then to 50% for the almost the rest of the entire show.

Really, HOW you use the hazer depends on your needs. I'm using the HZ-300 to fill a 580-seat theater and it works great. I keep it thin. Thin enough so people barely notice it until any lights other than house lights are on.

Most guys simply set the hazer up with the wired remote and leave it. Really, for the most part, this is MORE than sufficient.

Regardless of how thick or thin, it will definately compliment the lights.

I'm an audio engineer by training and choice. I am forced to doing lights and video out of necessity. I can't say it's all fun, but thanks to MyDMX, it's been far more enjoyable. My DMX Operator is a great console, but I'm just not able to do what I want with it for m events anymore. I'd say you do what you are doing: having fun with the lights. Outside of formal training, this is the best way to learn it. You've obviously got an interest in it and you're having fun.

What you might want to do is if time allows is take a theatrical lighting class to get some theory and other practical knowledge to fill in the gaps. The focus is fundamentals.

Right now I'm working on getting photos from my last 3-day event online(SacAnime, January 8-10, 2010) and get video from Sac Horror Film Fest, Amber's Sweets, SacAnime and a couple of other events on the site. Plus, I am scheduling my console's full all-points inspection this weekend, so lots to do.I want to get photos done tonight so I can work on the console tomorrow.

Oh, and more gear is in the near future. I love those Mega Panels I bought, so I think I need 2 more of those. I also am getting 8 new Elation Par-Can LED lights soon as well. Maybe some Mega Bar-type lights are in my near future as well. Of course, more mics, always more mics. I would love to have a pair of AKG 414's(the silver models), some more Audix OM 5's and 7's, some Sennheiser wireless and a bunch of 421's and 906's, a second Yamaha Subkick, 5 more Telefunken M-80's, Heil PR20,22, 30 and 35 mics, a Nuemann KSM105 and a Shure KMS 9.

It's just money, right?

You should publish a book!!!

I had an interest in audio engineering at an early age. Things happened and my interests changed. My discipline ended up being forensics. We do have a small variety of UV and IR lighting. : )

I would love to get into some classes. Maybe the local community college offers such? I'll check into it.

I'd definately recommend some classes if possible. But in the meantime, you've got plenty to work with. I'd say just screw around and have fun.

In my case, I'm pretty lucky. I have really everything I need. I have video cameras, TBC's, scopes, genlock generators, encoders, recording gear, consoles, amps/speakers/monitors(including in-ears), mics, lighting and more. Anything I want to try to do, I have all the gear in-house. Since I have to do lighting, sound(FOH and monitors), video and recording all at once, I can work on this in an offline environment and try to "break" my shows before a show ever takes place.

You're in a very similar situation. What you just have to do is just do what you've been doing: screw around and ask questions. While you're not doing crime scene investigations. But you're in a key point: What we do are disciplines. Some of us focus more than others. Really for me, I focus on the audio first, everything else is secondary. You've got SOME amount of gear to work on, I just imagine you taking full advantage of it. Good way to blow off some stress after a rough day at work is just to be creative and let the mind relax.

I appreciate the assistance. It's great to have a resource such as this in which journeymen offer their expertise to apprentices at no charge.

You'd be proud... a few months ago I purchased a book: "Sound Reinforcement Handbook" by Gary Davis & Ralph Jones- for Yamaha. The book is very good. Lots of math and science like we love.

I'll follow your advice and continue to work with the equipment. Question: has the local fire department ever responded to your house due to the haze/fog? : )

I finally bought the Sound Reinforcement Handbook last year. My wife was so impressed she ruined it. It took me 15 years to find that book IN A STORE!!! I'm just not allowed to have nice things I guess.

Nope, never had a problem wiht the fire department wiht fog or haze. I barely use the stuff. I did have some fun this last halloween. I set up 4 Par36's on a dimmer pack running a random program, a Color Fusion in sound active mode, and my Fog Storm700 with a wireless remote. Set it up near the door and blasted people all night long. People seemed to enjoy it. I might do a big rolling fog this next time if the weather is cool and a weekend, get that nice ground fog going. Should be interesting, to say the least!

Other than that, I've never fired up the HZ-300 or the ICE-101 at my house. I've only had those since early December. I purchased those with a specific show in mind, and based on reactions to the show in general, I'd say I get my money back in 4 more shows, which should be around August or so.

Here's a rough image of the newly added Pocket Scans.

That looks cool.
Sincerely,

Update... The Operator Pro joystick works nicely with the Pocket Scans.

I was unable to set-up the "fine" joystick adjustment. I followed the manual instructions, but the set-up is not working out.

The controller does not display "GOOD" after repeating steps 1-4 in the set-up process. Either get "ERR" message or the display text jumps to another display.

I'm sure it's the operator, not the Operator Pro.