Hi all,
I was wondering if ADJ will be coming out with a wireless DMX system in the very near future? I see Elation offers one and so does the other competition, so was hoping ADJ will have an in-expensive reliable option.
Ric
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I would doubt it since wireless DMX isn't exactly cheap right now. It is fairly new and expect a few years before it comes down in price. Me, I simply don't trust it yet. I am not sure what frequency range it works on and thus not sure what else it would be fighting with. Until I find that out, then I might trust it depending on what it is fighting with.
As a company I can't see us doing that right now. But never say never.
Sincerely,
Sincerely,
Serra you have not used our WDMX system yet? Man i have never seen it fail yet. Never heard of it failing yet either. Read this.
http://www.plsn.com/index.php?...w&id=5802&Itemid=101
Sincerely,
http://www.plsn.com/index.php?...w&id=5802&Itemid=101
Sincerely,
The big show I work on would greatly benefit from wireless even more than it already does.
Right now, I've reduced my inventory on wireless mics from 11 to 9 thanks to the FCC 700Mhz stuff, and it will take a bit to replace the 2 700Mhz units I just had to get out of production. And I need to get bodypacks for all systems except 1. I already have 4 body packs, so that's another 6 body packs, at least $1200 or more.
I have 4 wireless in-ear monitors. I want to upgrade that to 8 channels, plus get some antenna combiners that work better than what I already have.(say, like more than 4 transmitter units). I also want to get a personal unit for myself and a second similar unit for the monitor mix engineer(or at least that position)
But, these are in frequencies that while are in the general broadcast spectrum, are relatively easy to deal with.
I am in agreement with Serra Ava in that i just don't trust wireless for DMX, mainly beause Elation has chosen to use the 2.4Ghz frequency. It's a matter of it being a crowded area of RF. Our 802.11a/b/g/n all uses it. Bluetooth uses it. Cell phones use it. Cordless phones use it. Our wireless keyboards and mice use it.
I'm debating on adding a wireless networking into my live rig. I may also have to consider a wireless intercom solution as well.
My show would definately benefit from wireless DMX though. I wouldn't dare get rid of my OptiBranch/4 by any stretch. I could can my runs to the spotlights if I use 2 receivers. My center cluster run could vanish, as well as my run to the far side of the venue.
So, my main concern is frequency crowding. I know the EWDMX system uses some sort of dynamic yet intelligent frequency hopping, which I don't have a big issue with, but again, with so much consumer grade crap in that band, I just worry. Since I have to work in urban, downtown, crowedged and suburban areas full of homes, apartments, little businesses and meat bags(aka people), I see more potential for crowding than at say a dedicated concert venue where there is typically a decent "buffer zone" from many surrounding possible issues.
Even in my own home, there is some nearby crap-bag who goes above and beyond to land on my WIFI frequencies because he likes to get his jollies off disrupting others(I played the same game on him until he begged for mercy).
The otehr issue is of course the price. I can't justify the price for now. The one transmitter isn' the problem, it's the cost of receivers, needing at least 6 of them if I wanted to really nuke the wires. I would be willing to give it an honest test on one of my shows. Even if it does work flawlessly, then it comes down to me being proven on it and sold on it, but not able to afford it. Gee, nothing new there for me, stuff I want and need but can't afford.
I don't think this is something Elation should even considering discontuing. I also don't think ADJ should bother right now unless they can cut costs by at least 2/3rds. The Elation market is NOT the same as the ADJ market. I mean, if they can afford it, then why not? Nothing wrong with that mentality. No two situations are the same.
For now, for me, cable is cheap, and I need a lot more of it.
I need to get myself an RF analyzer soon!
Right now, I've reduced my inventory on wireless mics from 11 to 9 thanks to the FCC 700Mhz stuff, and it will take a bit to replace the 2 700Mhz units I just had to get out of production. And I need to get bodypacks for all systems except 1. I already have 4 body packs, so that's another 6 body packs, at least $1200 or more.
I have 4 wireless in-ear monitors. I want to upgrade that to 8 channels, plus get some antenna combiners that work better than what I already have.(say, like more than 4 transmitter units). I also want to get a personal unit for myself and a second similar unit for the monitor mix engineer(or at least that position)
But, these are in frequencies that while are in the general broadcast spectrum, are relatively easy to deal with.
I am in agreement with Serra Ava in that i just don't trust wireless for DMX, mainly beause Elation has chosen to use the 2.4Ghz frequency. It's a matter of it being a crowded area of RF. Our 802.11a/b/g/n all uses it. Bluetooth uses it. Cell phones use it. Cordless phones use it. Our wireless keyboards and mice use it.
I'm debating on adding a wireless networking into my live rig. I may also have to consider a wireless intercom solution as well.
My show would definately benefit from wireless DMX though. I wouldn't dare get rid of my OptiBranch/4 by any stretch. I could can my runs to the spotlights if I use 2 receivers. My center cluster run could vanish, as well as my run to the far side of the venue.
So, my main concern is frequency crowding. I know the EWDMX system uses some sort of dynamic yet intelligent frequency hopping, which I don't have a big issue with, but again, with so much consumer grade crap in that band, I just worry. Since I have to work in urban, downtown, crowedged and suburban areas full of homes, apartments, little businesses and meat bags(aka people), I see more potential for crowding than at say a dedicated concert venue where there is typically a decent "buffer zone" from many surrounding possible issues.
Even in my own home, there is some nearby crap-bag who goes above and beyond to land on my WIFI frequencies because he likes to get his jollies off disrupting others(I played the same game on him until he begged for mercy).
The otehr issue is of course the price. I can't justify the price for now. The one transmitter isn' the problem, it's the cost of receivers, needing at least 6 of them if I wanted to really nuke the wires. I would be willing to give it an honest test on one of my shows. Even if it does work flawlessly, then it comes down to me being proven on it and sold on it, but not able to afford it. Gee, nothing new there for me, stuff I want and need but can't afford.
I don't think this is something Elation should even considering discontuing. I also don't think ADJ should bother right now unless they can cut costs by at least 2/3rds. The Elation market is NOT the same as the ADJ market. I mean, if they can afford it, then why not? Nothing wrong with that mentality. No two situations are the same.
For now, for me, cable is cheap, and I need a lot more of it.
I need to get myself an RF analyzer soon!
Thanks all. I know I could use it! I am trying and learning new ways to set up and break down. Every little bit of time saved here and there really add up and make a huge difference. So not having to run the long cabling from computer to rig will save 10-15 min for set up and about 5 on breakdown.
Ric
Ric
Yup. I hear that. That's why I'm considering wireless myself.
But the cost to save some runs is not cost effective to me. It's cheaper and better to get my crew to snap to it better! I'm teaching efficiency and self reliance and self motivation.
Too bad more fixtures aren't including this stuf built in. I think some Elation fixtures are including the wireless receiver into the fixtures, which all I can say is "awesome" despite the added cost. It's too bad the cost of receivers can't be reduced down to say $80 or less per receiver. That would put it competitive with USB-type dongles for 802.11x stuff for computers. But since it's listen only, I bet that cost could drop to below $50. Then again, we need high reliability approaching bullet proof, so the costs can't drop too much.
Something else to consider:
Each receiver needs a power drop as well. At the least, you're running a power cable and a power strip per drop now, plus having to set that up, the fixture(s) and the receiver. How much time are you really saving?
Get some reels, put your long DMX cables on those, and spool and unspool. Get the types where you can capture an end(the male end) so you can unspool to the fixtures. Fast and convenient and neat.
But the cost to save some runs is not cost effective to me. It's cheaper and better to get my crew to snap to it better! I'm teaching efficiency and self reliance and self motivation.
Too bad more fixtures aren't including this stuf built in. I think some Elation fixtures are including the wireless receiver into the fixtures, which all I can say is "awesome" despite the added cost. It's too bad the cost of receivers can't be reduced down to say $80 or less per receiver. That would put it competitive with USB-type dongles for 802.11x stuff for computers. But since it's listen only, I bet that cost could drop to below $50. Then again, we need high reliability approaching bullet proof, so the costs can't drop too much.
Something else to consider:
Each receiver needs a power drop as well. At the least, you're running a power cable and a power strip per drop now, plus having to set that up, the fixture(s) and the receiver. How much time are you really saving?
Get some reels, put your long DMX cables on those, and spool and unspool. Get the types where you can capture an end(the male end) so you can unspool to the fixtures. Fast and convenient and neat.
I haven't heard of a system failing, but I have heard of interference getting into the wireless signal and causing lights to go crazy and/or loss of control. If it is operating in the 2.4 ghz band, then that scares me even more. It means my cell phone can cut into it, let alone the fact that everyone now a days has a laptop.
An interesting quote I once heard, "A $5,000 RF unit almost does as good a job as a $25 cable." I rest my case. Now while I am sure there might be little cool things I can use it for here and there, I would never, ever run something show critical off a wireless system. Just like when we need to web cast or do anything web based, its a Ethernet cable, not a wireless connection.
Wireless mics work because they operate on different frequencies then we use in everyday life. However, you will notice on all the shows I do, always a wired backup. Some of the shows I do, mainly political stuff, there is no wireless, period.
An interesting quote I once heard, "A $5,000 RF unit almost does as good a job as a $25 cable." I rest my case. Now while I am sure there might be little cool things I can use it for here and there, I would never, ever run something show critical off a wireless system. Just like when we need to web cast or do anything web based, its a Ethernet cable, not a wireless connection.
Wireless mics work because they operate on different frequencies then we use in everyday life. However, you will notice on all the shows I do, always a wired backup. Some of the shows I do, mainly political stuff, there is no wireless, period.
I'm in agreement. I mean, I do want to go wireless to simplify my DMX cabling, but, it just doesn't scale well when it comes to pricing. I'm glad to hear Elation uses it at trade shows, I'm sure it avoids a lot of headache and mess, at least until the receiver up in the trussing!!
With this stuff working in the 2.4Ghz, think about this:
I have an iPhone. I'm sure not the only one who has one. And as most people know, it can work off of wifi. I'm fairly positive that the iPhone is NOT the only phone that can hook up via WIFI.
If I get an A&H iLive series console, I have the option to operate it via WIFI(if I provide the WIFI solution). I have to secure that WIFI, and then compete with whatever is spewing around me. Couple that will all the other 2.4Ghz devices that I can't control, and it's recipe for potential disaster. I want wifi as an option, not the thing I would rely on.
Whatever Elation is doing though, it works. The cost is justified because it's "industrial strength" and has other features to prevent someone else landing on the exact frequency in the band. But, outside of that article Jingles posted a link to, I don't see it being used in any touring applications. I mean, if you can go run power up to stuff, then what's a weatherproof and ruggedized DMX cable going to cost to run by it?
On shows I do with my regular wireless(mics and body packs and IEMs), I am running into more and more interference and problems these days thanks to FCC stuff and all the other crap flooding whatever usable frequencies are left. Why? You put the capability into the hands of idiots, and they don't know how to use it. Case and point: Was doing a show and the main mic, which worked fine in rehearsal, was experiencing drop-outs during the event due to some idiot firing up some device somewhere. I had to reprogram a mic to a scanned unused frequency and run out a new mic in the middle of the performance. Having antenna boosters/distro and remote antennas can only help so much. And it's gonna cost me at least $1800 for a decent RF analyzer, which at this point, I think I need to have.
In the meantime, for me, I'm going to order a bunch of DMX cabling, more XLR cabling, and more cat5 cabling!
I won't entirely rule out this wireless DMX stuff as something to consider going forward. For now, it's not within my budgetting. I also need to have it proven to me to my face. Where I am is such an RF problem area, it is a good battle ground for testing.
With this stuff working in the 2.4Ghz, think about this:
I have an iPhone. I'm sure not the only one who has one. And as most people know, it can work off of wifi. I'm fairly positive that the iPhone is NOT the only phone that can hook up via WIFI.
If I get an A&H iLive series console, I have the option to operate it via WIFI(if I provide the WIFI solution). I have to secure that WIFI, and then compete with whatever is spewing around me. Couple that will all the other 2.4Ghz devices that I can't control, and it's recipe for potential disaster. I want wifi as an option, not the thing I would rely on.
Whatever Elation is doing though, it works. The cost is justified because it's "industrial strength" and has other features to prevent someone else landing on the exact frequency in the band. But, outside of that article Jingles posted a link to, I don't see it being used in any touring applications. I mean, if you can go run power up to stuff, then what's a weatherproof and ruggedized DMX cable going to cost to run by it?
On shows I do with my regular wireless(mics and body packs and IEMs), I am running into more and more interference and problems these days thanks to FCC stuff and all the other crap flooding whatever usable frequencies are left. Why? You put the capability into the hands of idiots, and they don't know how to use it. Case and point: Was doing a show and the main mic, which worked fine in rehearsal, was experiencing drop-outs during the event due to some idiot firing up some device somewhere. I had to reprogram a mic to a scanned unused frequency and run out a new mic in the middle of the performance. Having antenna boosters/distro and remote antennas can only help so much. And it's gonna cost me at least $1800 for a decent RF analyzer, which at this point, I think I need to have.
In the meantime, for me, I'm going to order a bunch of DMX cabling, more XLR cabling, and more cat5 cabling!
I won't entirely rule out this wireless DMX stuff as something to consider going forward. For now, it's not within my budgetting. I also need to have it proven to me to my face. Where I am is such an RF problem area, it is a good battle ground for testing.